Dear Flimchik, the best dictionary that I can find at hand doesn't contrain "Brouhaha". What is that? Should I look it up in a 20-volume OED?

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Art

Kostya, na samom dele russkij yazyk nesravnimo bogache anglijskogo, slov v nem bol'she. Chto kasaetsya krasoty, to ya dumayu, chto ne v tom delo, chto russkij kazhetsya krasivee potomu, chto on rodnoj. Eto prosto ob'ektivnaya otsenka. Naprimer, polnoe neznanie frantsuzskogo yazyka ne meshaet mne schitat' etot yazyk krasivee anglijskogo.

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Alas, Alesha, to appreciate the beauty of something you must know it. The only fact that French sounds beautiful to you doesn't mean that you realise its real beauty, it only tells that you understand what sounds are beautiful to you and what are not. Can you esteem the beauty of Modigliani if you know nothing about his life and work? Can you underdstand the beauty of English if you use it only as a tool? Can you perceive the beauty of science if it is only an annoying school subject for you? Art

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Art

Art, ty ne ponyal menya. Mne nravitsya, kak zvuchit frantsuzskij, ya schitayu zvukovye sochetaniya ot proiznesennyh frantsuzskih slov krasivymi, i mne ne nado zadumyvat'sya, chto oni oznachayut. Esli hochesh' utochneniya, to ya skazhu, chto sravnivayu neznakomye mne yazyki lish' v aspekte zvuchaniya, i gradatsiya zdes' nichut' ne menee umestna, chem po lyubomu drugomu printsipu. Eto kak muzyka. Ty ved' lyubish' kakie-to melodii, no pri etom, skoree vsego, ne yavlyaesh'sya professional'nym muzykantom, chtoby prochuvstvovat' ih glubinu. Neprofessionaly sudyat po printsipu "nravitsya-ne nravitsya" i imeyut na eto polnoe pravo. Tvoj vopros "mozhno li otsenit' to, chto ne znaesh'?" ritorichen, tol'ko on ne imeet nikakogo otnosheniya k dannomu sluchayu. Ne vsegda nuzhno doskonal'no znat' predmet, chtoby otsenit' ego v kakom-to (pust' dazhe vneshnem) aspekte. Da, esli ty ne znakom s ponyatiem logarifma, to tebe trudno budet ponyat' izyaschestvo matematicheskogo rezul'tata. No vot esli ty vidish' krasivuyu devushku, sovsem neobyazatel'no s nej znakomit'sya, chtoby otsenit' ee vneshnost'. Tak chto tvoe kategorichnoe utverzhdenie (nazovem ego teoremoj) dalo proboinu.

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doljna soglasitsa bolshe s Artyomom chem s toboi, Alesh... shtob istinno otsenit' krasotu chego-to, eto shto-to nujno poznat'... frantsuzkiy ili ital'yanskiy nam kajutsa krasivimi potomu shto mi ix ne znaem. If we used these languages in day-to-day life, cursed in them, said the word "jopa" in them, etc. - ti bi mojet uje ne dumal shto zvukosochetanie frantsuzkix bukv takoe uj diko krasivoe! Ono bi stalo prosto obidennim, kak stal dlya nas angliyskiy. Tot je frantsuzkiy mi assotsiiruem s frantsuzkoi muzikoi (Edit Piaf, Mirei Mat'e, Joe Dassin), s fil'mami, s literaturoi, s samoi stranoi, chert poberi! Vse eto pridaet kalorit i krasotu yaziku na kotorom vse eti proizvedeniya bili napisanni. Frantsuzkiy nam kajetsa krasivim i v silu etogo toje, ya tak shitau! Po etomu na vopros "mojno li otsenit' to, chego ne znaesh" - moi otvet "net, ne sovsem." "Not really," kak govoryat po-angliyskiy. Po-frantsuzkiy: "Pas completement." "In her first passion, woman loves her lover. In all others, all she loves is love." - Lord Byron -

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Zvuchanie yazyka - odin iz kriteriev otsenki, odna iz harakteristik yazyka. I tol'ko po etomu parametru ya mogu otsenivat' te yazyki, na kotoryh ne govoryu. Razumeetsya, chtoby sravnit' leksicheskuyu mosch' yazyka ili raznoobrazie grammaticheskih konstruktsij, nuzhno ego znat', ya s etim i ne sporyu. Alla: Ya dumayu, chto dazhe esli ty kazhdyj den' govorish' na yazyke, i on, kak ty nazvala, stanovitsya obydennym (dovol'no tochnoe opredelenie), eto esche ne lishaet ego shansov byt' otsenennym po dostoinstvu. Primer - russkij yazyk. Ya govoryu na nem kazhdyj den', prichem znachitel'no bol'she, chem po-anglijski. Govoril na nem i zadolgo do togo, kak vyuchil pervoe anglijskoe slovo. No i po sej den' chuvstvuyu ego izyaschestvo i mosch'. Soglasen, chto est' nemalaya dolya stereotipizatsii v tom, chto mnogie lyubyat imenno frantsuzskij. Mnogie zhenschiny, naprimer, shodyat s uma ot frantsuzskih muzhchin, nichego konkretno o nih ne znaya. Sharm, kotorym obladaet Frantsiya (dlya razdelyayuschih eto mnenie), bezuslovno, dovleet nad otsenkami. Odnako nezavisimo ot vsego etogo ya prosto ochen' lyublyu slushat' frantsuzskij. I esche takaya detal'. Vot ty skazala, chto my lyubim etot yazyk potomu, chto naslushalis' Joe Dassina i Mirei Mat'e. A ya dumayu, chto kak raz naoborot: frantsuzskij yazyk v sochetanii s kvalifitsirovannym ispolneniem i priyatnym tembrom est' prichina, po kotoroj my lyubim tu zhe Mirei Mat'e. Vopros "mojno li otsenit' to, chego ne znaesh?" voobsche ritorichen, no prosto k dannoi situatsii on ne sovsem podhodit, potomu chto poslushat' yazyk, pust' dazhe nichego v nem ne ponimaya - znachit uzhe chto-to o nem uznat'.

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Alesh, chitala chitala ya tvoi reply, no tol'ko doidya do poslednego predlojeniya s toboi soglasilas' - pravda, shto slushaya yazik mi UJE shto to o nem uznaem. ok.. more or less ugovoril.. "In her first passion, woman loves her lover. In all others, all she loves is love." - Lord Byron -

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quote:

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Originally posted by Art: Dear IntensityInsanity, Good. Now it makes more sense. The pronounciation of "cold" in English and American is different indeed. Unfortuanately, the scarcity of this font does not allow me to use all the symbols needed to show the actual transcription, but I'll try to do my best with what I have. British "cold" is pronounced [k&@ld] (where & is schwa and @ is a certain soft variant of "u") while in American it is simply [kould]. The sound "k" is also somewhat different. The "miaowing" combination "&@" can also be met in "road", "over", "retro", and the more miaowing it is in your speech, the more "educated" accent you are meant to have. It is very characteristic of how educated people speak in the Southern part of Great Britain. Other words in my list may have similar little traps for Americans. Art.

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Art, Thanks for the reply. I do see your point.

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hotya NET, vse ravno! ne mogu ya uiti ot etoi temi, hotya rabotat' nado.. prosto ya uje mnogo let izuchayu frantsuzkiy i doljna skazat' shto po nachalu, kogda ya nichego ob etom yazike ne znala, on mne kazalsya diko krasivim, sexy, flowing, i t.d. Kak vse chego ne znaesh, on menya manil imenno svoei neizvestnost'u. No kogda nachinaesh izuchat' padeji, skloneniya, vremena, i t.d. - to yazik nachinaet teryat' svoyu zagadochnost' i stanovitsa bolee dostupnim, useful, every-day. Koneshno, on mne vse ravno diko nravitsa! No imenno potomu shto ya ego uje chut-chut' znayu i mogu otsenit' ego silu virajeniy, shirokiy mnogoznachniy nabor slov, a ne tol'ko kak on esteticheski zvuchit! Glyadya na krasivuyu devushku, ti mojesh otsenit' lish ee poverxnostnie kachestva.. no ne ee vsyu! Verno? Ona tebe mojet nravitsa, chisto vizual'no - toje pravda. No shtob ponyat' i polubit', nado uznat' i izuchit'. To je samoe s yazikami. Moe mnenie. "In her first passion, woman loves her lover. In all others, all she loves is love." - Lord Byron -

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Alla, ubedit' kogo-to v chem-to - tozhe odna iz teh shtuchek, kotorye uluchshayut nastroenie ne huzhe solnechnoj podody. [:-)]

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nea! sorry. chitai vishe! "In her first passion, woman loves her lover. In all others, all she loves is love." - Lord Byron -

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Nu vot tak vsegda: tol'ko obraduesh'sya, i vot tebe... Alla, dorogaya, tak ved' i v otnoshenii yazykov (ne tol'ko frantsuzskogo), i v otnoshenii devushek ya govoril lish' o tom, chto poverhnostnym vzglyadom mozhno otsenit' kakoi-to vneshnij parametr. Devushka mozhet nravit'sya vneshne, a kogda uznaesh' o nej pobol'she, mnenie mozhet izmenit'ysa. Yazyk, dopustim, krasivo zvuchit, no kogda izuchaesh' ego, obnaruzhivaesh' ubogost' ili tyazhelovesnost'. Estestvenno, bol'shee znanie daet tebe bol'shij prostor dlya formirovaniya ob'ektivnoj otsenki. No dlya pervogo vpechatleniya dostatochno i minimal'noj informatsii. Nu pochemu, esli mne bol'she nravitsya frantsuzskoe "informaci'on" (mogu nepravil'no napisat', no ty ponyala, tak kak izuchaesh' etot yazyk), chem anglijskoe "inform'ation", mne govoryat, chto ya diletant i ne mogu sudit' ob etih veschah? So mnoj neobyazatel'no soglashat'sya, no ya hochu byt' pravil'no ponyatym.

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Originally posted by Alesha: Kostya, na samom dele russkij yazyk nesravnimo bogache anglijskogo, slov v nem bol'she. Chto kasaetsya krasoty, to ya dumayu, chto ne v tom delo, chto russkij kazhetsya krasivee potomu, chto on rodnoj. Eto prosto ob'ektivnaya otsenka. Naprimer, polnoe neznanie frantsuzskogo yazyka ne meshaet mne schitat' etot yazyk krasivee anglijskogo.

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Sorry, but that is incorrect. No language has more words than English does. English has over 800,000 words - it is by FAR the richest language. For almost every Russian word I can find you 2-5 English words that mean the same thing (or a more precise variant). For example, this is why Shakespeare is such a legend - if you take all his works combined, he used more English words than any other author in history - and this is no small feat.

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Ne znayu, otkuda u tebya chislo 800 000, no uveren, chto v russkom yazyke slov nikak ne men'she, tak kak v nem mnogo zaimstvovannyh slov. Plyus mnogo svoih. Vsya nauchnaya i spetsial'naya terminologiya davno obrusela, to est' stala chast'yu yazyka. Shakespeare tem ne menee ne ispol'zoval i 50000 slov, dazhe esli ego leksikon samyj bogatyj (etot fakt govorit tol'ko o tom, chto ego leksikon bogache, chem leksikon drugih pisatelej, no ne o tom, chto english - bolee polnyj yazyk). Mne govorili professional'nye perevodchiki, chto v russkom yazyke bol'she slov, chem v English. Ya mogu na lyuboe anglijskoe slovo privesti neskol'ko russkih sinonimov. Takoj primer. V "Otcah i detyah" Turgenev ispol'zoval 200 slov, podcherkivayuschih ottenki glagola "govorit'", i eto ne predel. Dumayu, chto anglijskijskomu tut sorevnovat'sya trudno.

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Alesha - ok. Ya tebya pravil'no ponyala. And u'r right. "In her first passion, woman loves her lover. In all others, all she loves is love." - Lord Byron -

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