Stalin killed millions of people ?!?!?!?  really ?!??!?  

Where did those numbers came from ??

Memorial numbers count less than 900000 that were shot....  Death rate in Gulag was actually on par with median death rate outside of them ...  

Oh, wait - I know - Solzhenitsyn said so, right ??  That same *** who wanted US to nuke Soviet Union, so his GULAG guards die in nuclear fire....

Or maybe you count victims of famine in Ukraine and Volga regions ?

My own grand father was sentenced and executed, but it wasn't Stalin who did it - it were neighbors who wanted to take over the whole house, it were local NKVD personnel who just went thru horrendes war and saw real traitors and collaborators with germans....

Egor said it right - there would be none of you jews left if not for Stalin. Britain sent jews back to Europe into hitlers arms, France was happy delivering your ancestors to concentration camp, poles and baltics were hunting your kind with dogs and ukranians burning them in villages.....

It was Soviet Union that <b>tried</b> to build racially and nationality blind society , society where people knowledge and craftsman-shift were the measure of success, not amount of money they had, society  whoс goal was common good .....

Its funny how same people who despise Stalin applaud people who exterminated 90% of american indians and anywhere close to 30~50 Indian indians, god knows how many africans... people who owned, raped and killed slaves... people who supported death squads in latin america and have started multiple wars in the last 50 years....

And none of those crimes were ever necessary or something that couldn't be avoided, like things Stalin had to do....

those peoples countries never fall apart due to fooked up dynasty which produced lame czar .... they never had to rebuilt a country and society ravaged by civil war of epic proportions , never had to rebuild again after another war.... 

Do not fooking judge !!!

Try to understand why it happened   !!

Learn what lead to what decision.... 

Maybe you'll learn that your "кулаки" ancestors weren't as innocent as you'd like them to be .... прятали хлебушек то от продразверстки , а !??!?  

п.с.

продразверстку придумали не большевики  !!

 And by the way - Stalin's strongly regulated and regimented state wasn't supposed to last forever. If West wouldn't start the cold war - maybe Chrushev's "оттепель" was to be the beginning of truly liberal and en-lighted state ? the times of peace and prosperity ??

what about that ??

Don't you think some of the blame for the USSR's fooked up state of mind was on those who openly wanted to destroy it ?!?!

Or are you one of those who like to die under democratization bombs or even like to deliver those to poor bastards who has no democracy ???

 

 

 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

Just read some of those....

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Simon Sebag Montefiore. Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar. p. 649: "Perhaps 20 million had been killed; 28 million deported, of whom 18 million had slaved in the Gulags.".ISBN 0753817667. See also: Dmitri Volkogonov. Autopsy for an Empire: The Seven Leaders Who Built the Soviet Regime. pp. 139: "Between 1929 and 1953 the state created by Lenin and set in motion by Stalin deprived 21.5 million Soviet citizens of their lives.". ISBN 0684834200. and Alexander N. Yakovlev; Austin, Anthony; Hollander, Paul (10 April 2004). A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press. p. 234: "My own many years and experience in the rehabilitation of victims of political terror allow me to assert that the number of people in the USSR who were killed for political motives or who died in prisons and camps during the entire period of Soviet power totaled 20 to 25 million. And unquestionably one must add those who died of famine – more than 5.5 million during the civil war and more than 5 million during the 1930s.". ISBN 9780300103229. and Robert Gellately. Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler: The Age of Social Catastrophe. Knopf, 2007 ISBN 1400040051 p. 584: "More recent estimations of the Soviet-on-Soviet killing have been more 'modest' and range between ten and twenty million."and Stéphane Courtois. The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror Repression. Harvard University Press, 1999. p. 4: "U.S.S.R.: 20 million deaths." and Jonathan Brent, Inside the Stalin Archives: Discovering the New Russia. Atlas & Co., 2008 (ISBN 0977743330) Introduction online (PDF file):Estimations on the number of Stalin's victims over his twenty-five year reign, from 1928 to 1953, vary widely, but 20 million is now considered the minimum. and Steven Rosefielde. Red Holocaust. Routledge, 2009. ISBN 0415777577 p.17: "We now know as well beyond a reasonable doubt that there were more than 13 million Red Holocaust victims 1929–53, and this figure could rise above 20 million." and Norman Naimark.Stalin's Genocides (Human Rights and Crimes against Humanity). Princeton University Press, 2010. p. 11: "Yet Stalin's own responsibility for the killing of some fifteen to twenty million people carries its own horrific weight..."

Vadim Erlikman (2004). Poteri narodonaseleniia v XX veke: spravochnik. Moscow 2004: Russkai︠a︡ panorama. ISBN 5-93165-107-1.

 "Twentieth Century Atlas – Death Tolls". See also: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956, 1973–1976 ISBN 0-8133-3289-3 

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Evgeny, if someone doesn't want to see that the piss in their eyes is not God's-own morning dew, there is really nothing to be done.

All those books can be rejected wholesale as propaganda and history taken out of content. Fundamentally speaking, some people just don't value human life like it's valued in the (so called) free world. A factory opening a year earlier, couple of thousand more tonnes of bread in the reserve are all things whose value can be honestly evaluated against the value of the lives of strangers. And what's more valuable to the state will win...

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Jedem Das Seine.

KGB: "А еще у них негров вешают и ндейцев убивают". But seriously, from what I hear this kind of profusely confused historical reflection, mixed with unabridged patriotism is all the rage in Russia these days. You need to be in the United Russia party, what are you doing in Atlanta?

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Sic semper tyrannis
~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

KGBMan:

Where did those numbers came from ??

Calculating the number of victims

Researchers before the 1991 dissolution of the Soviet Union attempting to count the number of people killed under Stalin's regime produced estimates ranging from 3 to 60 million.^[88] After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives also became available, containing official records of the execution of approximately 800,000 prisoners under Stalin for either political or criminal offenses, around 1.7 million deaths in the Gulags and some 390,000 deaths during kulak forced resettlement – for a total of about 3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.^[89]

The official Soviet archival records do not contain comprehensive figures for some categories of victims, such as the those of ethnic deportations or of German population transfers in the aftermath of World War II.^[90] By 1948, according to Nicolas Werth, the mortality rate of the 600,000 people deported from the Caucasus between 1943 and 1944 had reached 25%.^[91] Other notable exclusions from NKVD data on repression deaths include the Katyn massacre, other killings in the newly occupied areas, and the mass shootings of Red Army personnel (deserters and so-called deserters) in 1941. The Soviets executed 158,000 soldiers for desertion during the war,^[92] and the "blocking detachments" of the NKVD shot thousands more.^[93] Also, the official statistics on Gulag mortality exclude deaths of prisoners taking place shortly after their release but which resulted from the harsh treatment in the camps.^[94] Some historians also believe the official archival figures of the categories that were recorded by Soviet authorities to be unreliable and incomplete.^{[95][page needed][96]} In addition to failures regarding comprehensive recordings, as one additional example, Robert Gellately and Simon Sebag-Montefiore argue the many suspects beaten and tortured to death while in "investigative custody" were likely not to have been counted amongst the executed.^[22][97]

Historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 4 million to nearly 10 million, not including those who died in famines.^[98] Russian writer Vadim Erlikman, for example, makes the following estimates: executions, 1.5 million; gulags, 5 million; deportations, 1.7 million out of 7.5 million deported; and POWs and German civilians, 1 million – a total of about 9 million victims of repression.^[99]

Some have also included deaths of 6 to 8 million people in the 1932–1933 famine as victims of Stalin's repression. This categorization is controversial however, as historians differ as to whether the famine was a deliberate part of the campaign of repression against kulaks and others,^{[50][100][101][102][103]} or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization.^{[66][104][105]}

Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths—6 million from famine and 4 million from other causes—are attributable to the regime,^[106] with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, gulags, deportations and other causes.^[107] Adding 6–8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.^[108] In his most recent edition of The Great Terror (2007), Conquest states that while exact numbers may never be known with complete certainty, the various terror campaigns launched by the Soviet government claimed no fewer than 15 million lives.^[109] Others maintain that their earlier higher victim total estimates are correct

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Egor:

KGBMan:

Where did those numbers came from ??

Calculating the number of victims

Во-первых ничего небыло, во-вторых унижение России в интересах Запада, в-третьих сколько среди них было виновных не указано, в четвертых это цена индустрализации под угрозой вторжения так что вина частично на аггрессорах... and all that cal  ...

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Jedem Das Seine.

thank you, captain obvious. 

I was just answering a question. 

OIt really makes a huge difference for anyone arguing about these numbers (if they are interested in the topic, which i don't think anyone is, really), how and by whom these numbers are calculated.  Because once a number is out there, it may be used in arguments by people, who have no earth;ly idea what they are even talking about, and whose propaganda they are pushing.  Just adding to the ideologial chaos when dealing with these issues honestly.    Lowest estimates include only those sentenced to be shot w Stalin's signature.  Highest estimates include virtually all deaths, natural and unnatural,  in the eastern hemisphere between 1920s and 1950s.  The resulting variance, is 100000%.  No, my zero key is not stuck.

What does this tell us?  No one is interested in anything but ideology and opportunism.

I cannot for the life of me find a reasonable calculation that anyone has attempted, as an objective observer of history.  I am looking at something that would take into account (for example)mortality rates in Russia before Stalin, projected over the 3 decades of his reign and subtracted from the estimates.  Another example - life expectancy increased by decades due to access to medical care and social services for all citizens.  Eradicating several deadly deseases that took hundreds of millions over previous generations, lowered infant mortality to almost what it is today in the US, from astounding numbers prior, by giveing access to  pre/post natal care to 100% of women.  Should this be accounted for? 

I guess that depends on one's ideology.

But humans don't like to learn nearly as much as they like to teach.

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Well, Russians are not Germans. They are not that anal. They did not keep detailed records on whom they killed and did not charge for one-way train tickets to death. Neither they are as thrifty, so they did not process people for soap and hair...

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Jedem Das Seine.

Again, thank you, captain obvious!

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

AHTOH:

KGB: "А еще у них негров вешают и ндейцев убивают". But seriously, from what I hear this kind of profusely confused historical reflection, mixed with unabridged patriotism is all the rage in Russia these days. You need to be in the United Russia party, what are you doing in Atlanta?

"profusely confused historical reflection????"  Seriously?

US doesnt even have the historical revisionist extremists that would dispute this.  It takes YOU :)

And after this, you can talk sh*t to KGBman? 

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Egor:

US doesnt even have the historical revisionist extremists that would dispute this.  It takes YOU :)

 

That is true! Here history does not need to be revised. Confused historical reflection can exist here in blessed isolation like flightless birds in Australia. Need I bring examples of have we all seen this? :-)

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Jedem Das Seine.

Egor:

AHTOH:

KGB: "А еще у них негров вешают и ндейцев убивают". But seriously, from what I hear this kind of profusely confused historical reflection, mixed with unabridged patriotism is all the rage in Russia these days. You need to be in the United Russia party, what are you doing in Atlanta?

"profusely confused historical reflection????"  Seriously?

US doesnt even have the historical revisionist extremists that would dispute this.  It takes YOU :)

And after this, you can talk sh*t to KGBman? 

I was being cynical

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Sic semper tyrannis
~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

Only KGB would argue that killing one million of your own citizens, not counting those who died in the concentration camps (exactly why were they there?  Oh yea, saying something Stalin didn't like) does not constitute a ruthless extermination of the very citizens you were supposed to protect and help build a better life.  I will never understand rationalization like this. Neither will history or the rest of the world.  This statement by KBG is like saying "hey look, Hitler was bad, but he built the autobahn."

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

I don't think he is even rationalizing it.  He is basically saying:

1. Most of those who suffered in the camps were guilty anyways. How would one end up in a camp? Just wonder in?
2. There weren't millions of casualties (because KGB archives are still sealed).
3. It wasn't Stalin, it was the local NKVD people. It's all their fault.
4. Solzhenitsyn was going to nuke Soviet Union.
5. Americans should shut up because they killed Indians and lynched blacks.

Like in that Direct TV commercial "I am epic win"

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Sic semper tyrannis
~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

Do we have reason to believe some archives are still sealed?  From what I researched in the last few days, everything that's not destroyed appears to have been declassified.  Even Wikipedia of all people, has sample scans of stalin's approvals for mass executions. What's more damaging than that? 

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher