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Originally posted by Lokthor: I mentioned that some groups of Chechen fighters did some crimes, but that groups were small part of Chechen freedomfighters.

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Terrorists. Not freedom fighters. If I come to your home and kill you and your family, am I a freedom fighter? No, I didn't think so. Why are you referring to these people as freedom fighters? They are stinkin terrorists. Are Palestenians also freedom fighters? Are those who blew up WTC on 9/11 also freedom fighters? Freedom figher = another liberal misleading word used to un-demonize common criminals, terrorists, and murderers. II

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II, you rock man ! "...Нашу песню не задушишь, не убьешь..."

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

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Originally posted by KGBMan: II, you rock man ! "...Нашу песню не задушишь, не убьешь..."

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thnx :) I try :) II

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Greetings! On does not need to serve in the Russian/Soviet military to have a good idea on what is going on in Chechnya. Walk into any school, any neighborhood, you would see the same picture: Vasya is "derjhit class" - bulleying an entire class, Petya "sobiraet dan'" - taking money from underclassmen. Take virtually any group of kids, you will have the one who is bigger terrorising someone weaker. Countless times have I seen the same situation. As boy tries to enter the school, he is asked: - "Denigi est'?" (Do you have any money on you?) - "Net" (No) - "A esli poiskat'?" (What if we(I) search you?) - "Nety deneg..." (No money) - " A ny podoidi! Viverni karmani! Poprigai!" (Come close, turn out your pockets, jump in place (so the change can dangle)) This is the reason I never brought any money to school, nor anything of value, like a nice pen or toy. Now imagine how this kids, now grown, act in Chechnya... Sargeant Vasya explains the fourth Geneva convention to his detachment and demands that his men follow it no matter what. Petya is at the "blockpost" (checkpoint) politely asks suspicious drivers about their heading and requests their permission to look inside their vichicles. The kids I went to school with in the eighties would now be officers and NCOs, so the rank-and-file of the Russian army is even worse. Now, those of you who are going to jump on me and argue that the same thing goes on sometimes in American schools, or that the US or some other military is just the same, let me ask you this. Why did you leave Russia for US? If US is just the same? It is not the same, and I don't need CNN to tell me that. I went to HS in Atlanta, and I don't know who "derjhal" class. Neither do I recall paying off anyone to get into the university. I am not even talking about the society at large. In Russia "Kto nagl i smel tot i bublik s`el" (The one who is rude and brave ate a bagle). It is really nauseating to read posts about Chechnya having or not having a legal right of secession. We are talking about a place where every local governer or official is "tzar', B-g i voinskii nachanl'nik" (tzar, G-d, and military commander) and spits on laws. It is really unfair to always say "Russia" for Chechens are also "Soviet people" and behave accordingly no matter what side they fight on (recall that there quite a few Chechens fighting for the "federals"). Same goes for the other republics even those that "support" the US. When people say "others do the same thing", I am doubtful. Have you ever heard of an Israeli commander demanding that his men bring him bodyparts of killed Palestinian Arabs? Can you imagine US Navy SEALs on a misson taking time to break into someone's house and steal a VCR? I can't. If someone tells me tomorrow that the US Marines at a checkpoint in Iraq demand money from civilians, I would seriously doubt that. However, if someone tells me that the Russian conscripts are robbing every person passing through the "blockpost" (and it is openly discussed in the Russian press) I would belive that. I mentioned conscripts, here, and I've often heard an excuse that all Russian army's problems are because it is largely made up from conscripts and people serve against their will. Well, Israeli army is formed the same way, so has the French army until most recently. Yet, no military force ever, anywhere, had gone to such a great lengths to protect the enemy as the Israeli military. Never do we hear about French soldiers running around Paris with weapons after killing ten or fifteen of their comrades. So, what's my point... My point is that a military force is a reflection of society at large. If a society is law abiding (largely, does not mean there are no criminals) its military will abide to the rules of war as well. However, if people in a society routinely ignore the law the military formed of such people will quickly degrade into a criminal organization. A while ago there was a lot of fuss in the Russian press about an order issued by general Moltensky, back then a commander of the Russian forces in Chechnya, about the proper way to conduct "zachiskty" (clean-up operations during which most human right abuses were happening). As you know, or have guessed, all the procedures described were well in compliance with every law on the book. The problem is that the order was routinely ignored and hence was not worth the paper it was written on. In order for the situation in Chechnya and Russia at large to improve the society needs to change. Unfortunately, the chances of millions of people suddenly changing their mentality are pretty slim. So, let's be glad we live in America and enjoy. All good. Sasha. Sasha

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Sasha

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Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.

I feel pity on those who were abused in Soviet schools. You and your family had to be retarded or something if you did nothing to stop this. One call to GORONO or OBKOM and those things would stop. Immediately By the way - we didn't have anybody controling the class or demanding money or who did any other stuff which bullies do in US. Not in my first school, not in second. That stuff came from american movies during perestroika I didn't had to pay anybody to get into college. I passed exams As for US Marines not taking anything from iraqi people - where you've been ? http://www.armytimes.com/channel.php?GQID=show There are some photographs of US guys in fur coats. Watch on CNN how US marines are using supplies and other stuff in some of the Saddam palaces.... Read european press Watch a movie about first Gulf war Also - were do you think all those art treasures from Iraq museums will end up ? And how are they going to pass all those roadblock US set up ? "...Нашу песню не задушишь, не убьешь..."

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

KGB do you really think it is that difficult to hide a priceless ancient vase or painting or jewelery among other items while passing the roadblock? Like there is a truck, a family is moving to another town, full of all kinds of dirty stuff and clothes and furniture and whatever. And somewhere in the middle of all that sh$t there is a priceless ancient treasure stolen from the museum. Is it that difficult to hide?? Nope. КГБ, а кстати, давно хотел спросить. Какую такую вашу песню не задушишь, не убьешь? :)

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It should be. If conducting road block are serious. In that truck full of dirty clothes could be an RPG, or little box with C4, or just couple of hand grenades wich coud be used to kill your comrades..... Plus - a lot of those artifacts are real big Это цитата, вообще то..... "...Нашу песню не задушишь, не убьешь..."

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

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I feel pity on those who were abused in Soviet schools. You and your family had to be retarded or something if you did nothing to stop this. One call to GORONO or OBKOM and those things would stop. Immediately

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KGB, I hope you are being sarcastic here :) I am not trying to say that life was impossible because of abuse, people delt with it and not neccessarily through OBKOM ;) I am trying to isslustrate the state of relationships between people.

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By the way - we didn't have anybody controling the class or demanding money or who did any other stuff which bullies do in US. Not in my first school, not in second. That stuff came from american movies during perestroika

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Yeah! Stalina na nih net!

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I didn't had to pay anybody to get into college. I passed exams

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I am not saying it was impossible to get in otherwise or that there is no corruption outside the former USSR. But the fact is that in former USSR this things occur systematically.

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As for US Marines not taking anything from iraqi people - where you've been ? http://www.armytimes.com/channel.php?GQID=show There are some photographs of US guys in fur coats. Watch on CNN how US marines are using supplies and other stuff in some of the Saddam palaces.... Read european press Watch a movie about first Gulf war Also - were do you think all those art treasures from Iraq museums will end up ? And how are they going to pass all those roadblock US set up ?

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You can't compare someone who picked up a coat at a palace abandoned by a dictator and someone who walked into a civilian's home demanding money. Sasha

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Sasha

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Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.

KGBMan, I doubt that any American state wish to be independent in present time, because states have enough powers and autonomy to handle their own internal matters, not like the Chechnya, who had not even the autonomy in the real meaning of word. If situation in US absolutely changes to bad for the states then is possible that some states demand independence. The assembly of one state accepts with quorum of 2/3 of representatives of people their own constitution or changes to the constitution which exists. That is the platform of the independence. Government asks citizens if they want to be their state independent and so they decide if will be state independent. Theorethical is the process very simple. The US are democratic, but not by all means and unconditional to their citizens and to the citizens of other countries. There is still doubt, which is true, that president GeorgeW.Bush was not really elected and court and election supervisors in Florida just made him huge favour with abortion of counting the votes. So much about the democracy. Now I have to go. I will write later because Is a big line for using the Internet and there is just one Computer with Internet in dorm.

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Originally posted by KGBMan: It should be. If conducting road block are serious. In that truck full of dirty clothes could be an RPG, or little box with C4, or just couple of hand grenades wich coud be used to kill your comrades..... Plus - a lot of those artifacts are real big Это цитата, вообще то..... "...Нашу песню не задушишь, не убьешь..."

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I do believe searches at those roadblocks are thorough and serious, but many of those items may simply be considered personal items or junk (hehe, because it indeed is some old junk visually). Of course for the big and specific items it is difficult to carry them out, true. Anyway, what I wanted to say that even though many precious trasures will be eventually found, many will still be lost. Some of them destroyed intentionally or accidentally, some just smuggled out of the country somehow. The fact is that the US troops have done a very lousy job protecting the cultural heritage, whereas they immediately protected the oil-related documents and buildings and other strategic items. That much about "caring" for Iraqi people and this whole democracy thing. By the way, WHERE ARE THE CHEMICAL WEAPONS??? According to what Bush had been saying, it was like there was supposed to be a chemical warhead in the backyard of every house :)) Now this whole WMD talk has quietly disappeared.. But that was the so much hyped-up reason for the whole war, wasn't it :) So where is WMD now? Hmmm, perhaps moved to Syria ;)

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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84967,00.html Here you go, american correspondents and servicemen are involved in stealing ....... Why can't you guys understand that all solgers on the battlefield are the same ? Ok, here we go gtSasha KGB, I hope you are being sarcastic here :) partialy I am not trying to say that life was impossible because of abuse, people delt with it and not neccessarily through OBKOM ;) Than I don't see where the problem is . But the system worked and had a way to resolve those issues. In many ways that system was better than those here. I am trying to isslustrate the state of relationships between people. I don't see much difference between there and here. We are not fundamentaly different. Yeah! Stalina na nih net! Net, prosto u kogo to konchayutsya argumenty I am not saying it was impossible to get in otherwise or that there is no corruption outside the former USSR. But the fact is that in former USSR this things occur systematically. Hm, do you have any info on research on this issue ? Like nimber of students in USSR/Russia that had to pay to get in ? If not - it is pointless. You had one experience - I did another. You can't compare someone who picked up a coat at a palace abandoned by a dictator and someone who walked into a civilian's home demanding money. Top of the page Lokthor I doubt that any American state wish to be independent in present time, because states have enough powers and autonomy to handle their own internal matters, That's not the point. I did not asked if they want to go, I asked is there a way to do it. not like the Chechnya, who had not even the autonomy in the real meaning of word. Excuse me ?!?!?!?! Chechnya had normal authonomy like any other authonomy in Russian Federation. Their own government, localy elected, own parlament, own budget. What are you talking about ? O, o, I get it - they didn't have right to harbor criminals or enslave people - I get it.. If situation in US absolutely changes to bad for the states then is possible that some states demand independence. The assembly of one state accepts with quorum of 2/3 of representatives of people their own constitution or changes to the constitution which exists. That is the platform of the independence. Government asks citizens if they want to be their state independent and so they decide if will be state independent. Theorethical is the process very simple. Ye, last time it happened - Civil war started I guess Union States were undemocratic. By the way, AFAIK states don't have a right to live a union. Also, there is a movement in Texas for independance. It is small, but exist. Those people are hunted by FBI. Returning to Chechnya - what give you idea that majority of people there wanted to separate from Russian Federation ? All poles show opposite.... I'll skip the Florida stuff. Alex I do believe searches at those roadblocks are thorough and serious, but many of those items may simply be considered personal items or junk (hehe, because it indeed is some old junk visually). Of course for the big and specific items it is difficult to carry them out, true. Anyway, what I wanted to say that even though many precious trasures will be eventually found, many will still be lost. Some of them destroyed intentionally or accidentally, some just smuggled out of the country somehow. The fact is that the US troops have done a very lousy job protecting the cultural heritage, whereas they immediately protected the oil-related documents and buildings and other strategic items. That much about "caring" for Iraqi people and this whole democracy thing. By the way, WHERE ARE THE CHEMICAL WEAPONS??? According to what Bush had been saying, it was like there was supposed to be a chemical warhead in the backyard of every house :)) Now this whole WMD talk has quietly disappeared.. But that was the so much hyped-up reason for the whole war, wasn't it :) So where is WMD now? Hmmm, perhaps moved to Syria ;) Who cares, now we have a weapon against radical islam and SA. That's all I was hoping for "...Нашу песню не задушишь, не убьешь..."

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

KGBMan, Like I said there is theoretical possibility of independence of some state in US with acception of new constitution or with changes of now existing. You and me know that in constitution of USA does not exist an article who declares the possibility of independence of some state. I know the american civil war and I must say that I support northern states in that intervention, because they abolished slavery in southern states, but I also know that northern states did not care about slaves in the south they just wanted to prevent independence of southern states and they wanted bigger income from southern states in the budget. When northern states saw that southern states do not want to pay taxes into budget anymore, they accepted the law of abolishing slavery which brought to southern states economic disaster because all their economy was based on agriculture in which were slaves main working force. If there was that kind of situation in Chechnya before the war, that Chechens were like southern states in US (having slaves) I absolutely support Russian intervention, but I think that before war Chechens did not have slaves, if they had nobody would talk with exiled Chechen government, maybe they had during the war, but like I said before: during the war is all possible.

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Corruption in Education: Here are some links: http://www.transparency.org.ru/CENTER/center_institute.asp Is this enough ? Sasha

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Sasha

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Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.

If the Palestinians are for you all terrorists then I can understand why you think that all Chechens are terrorists, bandits…I do not think that all Pelestinians are terrorists. It is the same thing if I say that all Russians are violent agressors who invade in countries that they want under control just because they have there economic interests. I watched american film with title 15 Minutes in which were two main characters Russian and Czech, two American imigrants who brutal killed some innocent Americans and they also filmed with videocamera all procedure just for being famous. I could say that all Russians are that kind of people but I know that great majority of Russians do not behave like that. Why is necessary to say that all Chechens are bad guys? For legitimation of the military intervention in Chechnya and to justify the Russian casualties in the war. I do not say that Chechen fighters are saints but they have all right to defend their country from the attack of the agressor. If you call them terrorists then you must use that expression also for the Soviet partisans in the second world war who also use guerilla and terrorist tactics in fight against Germans. Oh, yeah, Russian army intervened in Chechnya to save Chechens from Chechens. O.K. I put Basaev into the group of so-called renegades from the official Chechen government in exile, who did the most war crimes in Chechnya. I know that he earned a lot of money by transfering a lot of drugs from Afghanistan and that he obducted people for ransom. But his group is rather exception than the rule for all Chechens. If you know: Chechen government in exile said that Basaev and other smaller groups do not want to be under her command anymore, they operate separetly, and she is aware of that they could do things that you mentioned. I know that Basaev was also the main reason for problems in Dagestan, there he had economic interests and he wanted the power over the republic just for himself. He was personaly very greedy and with his behaviour he caused big dammage to Chechen independence. He provoked the second intervention in Chechnya for Russia was the excuse to intervene in Chechnya even he had not any close connections with the Chechen government anymore, because he was not happy with his role in his country, he wanted to be boss. He is black sheep among the Chechens whose personal interests destroyed dream of independence. If you know him, then you must think that all Chechens are like him. But they are not. That is just a stereotype. About the independent sources of Chechen crimes I can say that almost all Russian media is under governmental control, official or unofficial. O.K. I assume that some crimes which you are talking about were committed but I must say that in the time of war is all possible. But if you say that were all that horrible crimes committed before the war, in peace, then I think crimes which you mentioned could be committed allover the Russia. Why just in that small region of Chechnya? So Russia could intervened in much more regions to bring order not only in the Chechnya. If I assume that all your statements are true, but I doubt that they are. Not by your fault personaly, but because of non-objective media coverage. After the collapse of the comunist regime in Russia new regime did not really changed his attitude to media. I meant this site of democracy when I said that Russia is not democratic state. You know what happenned when were in Moscow so-called terrorist attacks: government arrested few thousands of Chechens on that area without the real suspicion of their terrorist activity like the American government American Arabic citizens after the september 11st 2001. We still do not know how many have been in the prison without the real proof and judging and without the legal service. Yes, some of them are still in the prison. I know that all things have at least two views. And that the truth is between them or it is maybe hidden somewhere else. Greetings!

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Just one more thing:maybe you see me as a spokeman of Chechen side, but I must say that I try to see things from as much as possible different sides. I just have experiences with our 10 days war when much bigger power attacked my homeland, because they did not want our independence. So I can understand small nations. My nation has less than 2.000.000. souls in homeland and around 350.000 souls around the world.

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