To be fair, noone says that mass executions did not happen. They say the young Soviet State had many enemies...  and that the number of those who perished is greatly exaggerated. And that Stalin himself loved children and did not kill anyone :-)

...no word on whether he cried in his pillow...

---

Jedem Das Seine.

Orkster:

To be fair, noone says that mass executions did not happen.

Moreover, for the record, I did not say i condoned them anywhere in this topic, or that I would support any leader in any society, for any purpose, who would resort to these methods.

But, I would still drink this wine (if i didn't think it tastes like sh*t), and I think it is a good marketing move. 

---

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Egor:

Orkster:

To be fair, noone says that mass executions did not happen.

But, I would still drink this wine (if i didn't think it tastes like sh*t), and I think it is a good marketing move. 

That's because you are a sick f..k, Egor. :) You really are:) Try wearing a nazi uniform and show up at a bar mitzvah party. Or better yet, how about wearing NKVD uniform with a bottle of that Stalin f..king wine and show up in a Polish house in Chicago or in a house of Russians and Ukrainians, those who lost their relatives during the Stalin regime. I know it is all game for you.... I am pretty sure you would be willing to defend a pervert who'd make a kaka in a shopping mall in front of people with a message like "I can, and you can't so let me sh.t on you", and try to defend him/her just for a sport. Frankly, Egor, I am getting bored... And you know why? Because you don't make any sense:) 

I once heard someone say like... You are what you create around you. Egor, I don't want to be near you :) 

---

the coolaid, Egor, not wine

---

Sic semper tyrannis
~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

Evgeny:

...

Feel better.

---

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Egor:

Evgeny:

...

Feel better.

Barton Fink (1991). The main character in this movie reminds me YOU, Egor, Barton Fink. It's a good movie :) 

---

Egor:

KGBMan:

Where did those numbers came from ??

Calculating the number of victims

Researchers before the 1991 dissolution of the Soviet Union attempting to count the number of people killed under Stalin's regime produced estimates ranging from 3 to 60 million.^[88] After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives also became available, containing official records of the execution of approximately 800,000 prisoners under Stalin for either political or criminal offenses, around 1.7 million deaths in the Gulags and some 390,000 deaths during kulak forced resettlement – for a total of about 3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.^[89]

this sounds about right.  How many of those 800000 were actual criminals tho ??  you know murderers and rapists ? 

 

The official Soviet archival records do not contain comprehensive figures for some categories of victims, such as the those of ethnic deportations or of German population transfers in the aftermath of World War II.^[90]

that's BS - everything was documented. Every deportation required transportation means, people to guard deported , food for them... all those were documented.  Only people not familiar with Soviet system can say they weren't.

 

By 1948, according to Nicolas Werth, the mortality rate of the 600,000 people deported from the Caucasus between 1943 and 1944 had reached 25%.^[91]

who's he ?

How come then when Chechens returned to Caucasus there were way more of them then before ?

Oh , I know - Stalin was experimenting on them with fertility drugs, created special GULAG allowing them to multiply freely.... got ya...

 

Other notable exclusions from NKVD data on repression deaths include the Katyn massacre,

done by germans. this one hasn't been proven yet. very debatable.

 

other killings in the newly occupied areas,

what other ??  which facts ?

is this the same as 2 million german women raped ?

 

and the mass shootings of Red Army personnel (deserters and so-called deserters) in 1941. The Soviets executed 158,000 soldiers for desertion during the war,^[92]

and that's wrong how ??

Every army in the world had similar punishment for eserters during the war, specifically the war like that one... 

 

 and the "blocking detachments" of the NKVD shot thousands more.^[93]

that's BS. No facts at all....  why not millions....

"blocking detachments" with machine guns is a myth !! 

 

Also, the official statistics on Gulag mortality exclude deaths of prisoners taking place shortly after their release but which resulted from the harsh treatment in the camps.^[94]

what about people who died of natural causes in the GULAG... you know, got sick - die... of old age ?
How about the fact that during most of those years regular life in the country was very far from not being harsh ?

 

Some historians also believe the official archival figures of the categories that were recorded by Soviet authorities to be unreliable and incomplete.^{[95][page needed][96]}

based on what ?

Who were official authorities afraid off to cook the books ? 
This is transport of western archival practices to another territory ;)

In addition to failures regarding comprehensive recordings, as one additional example, Robert Gellately and Simon Sebag-Montefiore argue the many suspects beaten and tortured to death while in "investigative custody" were likely not to have been counted amongst the executed.^[22][97]

you mean like that poor black man raped by police in new york  , or countless black hanged and killed in US before segregation and KKK were stopped ?

 

Historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 4 million to nearly 10 million, not including those who died in famines.^[98] Russian writer Vadim Erlikman, for example, makes the following estimates: executions, 1.5 million; gulags, 5 million; deportations, 1.7 million out of 7.5 million deported; and POWs and German civilians, 1 million – a total of about 9 million victims of repression.^[99]

wait a sec - he counts german POW's and civilians as victims of repression !??!?!?!?!?

wow, that guy must been working on a grant from US state department. How come this dude is not known to anyone ???   

 

Some have also included deaths of 6 to 8 million people in the 1932–1933 famine as victims of Stalin's repression. This categorization is controversial however, as historians differ as to whether the famine was a deliberate part of the campaign of repression against kulaks and others,^{[50][100][101][102][103]} or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization.^{[66][104][105]}

so, scratch that one out. right ?

that's what I'm reading here ??

 "ложки нашлись, но осадок то остался"

 

Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths—6 million from famine and 4 million from other causes—are attributable to the regime,^[106] with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, gulags, deportations and other causes.^[107] Adding 6–8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.^[108] In his most recent edition of The Great Terror (2007), Conquest states that while exact numbers may never be known with complete certainty, the various terror campaigns launched by the Soviet government claimed no fewer than 15 million lives.^[109] Others maintain that their earlier higher victim total estimates are correct

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

here we taking a disputed fact and make it an assumption which add up with other BS like that to paint a bloody masterpiece of BS....

Conquest states ???!  what the fook are those ??

Latvia, Estonia and Lituvania ??  those Russian provinces returned into it's rightmost owner ? those who florished under soviet rule, doubling in population and economic might ? 

no, who then ??

 

all of ya you liberal fookers be dead if not for our grand fathers , those who fought and died for that country called USSR !!! "За Родину, За сталина!" was not a propaganda crap - people did use that !!

So take your head out of uncle sam's ass and learn about your history !!

 

---

- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

ha ha everyone is to the left of GB. even GB
ну Катынь то уже признали

---

Sic semper tyrannis
~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

Wow, Kgb.

I guess those who want to see, see.

And those who don't want to see, will never see.

---

Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

KGB, that is classic, bravo! You even included an appeal to the dead! So what of those 3 million whom even you admit?... plus those who died of hunger whom you gracefully included? Guilty as charged? Purges in the military and political establishment... Still no atrocities or terror against the populace?

In your classic rant you forgot to mention the environment in which the young Soviet republic found itself. 30K officially condemned Polish spies indicate widespread anti-soviet conspiracy. Refusal of the capitalists to sell bread on credit demanding gold instead. Plus, of course, all the achievements of the Soviet state -- including healthcare!

It's just that I see you arguing on the numbers, that is a very legitimate discussion to have. Not by you of course, by specialists. I'd like to hear a bit on moral justification of murder, taking of property, persecution, repressions, dictatorial government... more on how it was good for Chechens to be removed from their homeland at 25% deathrate and bad for places like Estonia to have independence... you know, all the juicy stuff :-)

---

Jedem Das Seine.

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---

Sic semper tyrannis
~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

AHTOH:

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 Мы знаем есть еще семейки

Где наше хают и бранят

Где с умилением глядят

На сталинских времен наклейки

А бургеры с лучком, едят!  ;-)

---

Jedem Das Seine.

Mr. KBG

Might I humbly point out first a simple thought?   Do you know how many murders ordered by the President of the United States perpetrated on his own citizens it would take for us to imprison him?

ONE

Even allowing the validity of your numbers, that makes Stalin 3 MILLION times more guilty than the American Presidency which you so much despise. If justice were even a little existent in the old USSR, Stalin would have been shot at least one million times (once for each 3 murders)

Finally, your thinking on this topic is really a piece of work.  Such a rant deserves a special place in whatever BS Hall of Fame this forum maintains. That rant is so full of selective facts and interpretations that it, in it's sum, it is ridiculous.

I offer as evidence to only two small parts of your rant.  First, check out the chart of the population of the Ukraine from 1910 onward.  Notice the huge population differences between 1920 and 1940.  After 1940 of course is accountable to the War.  These people DIED KBG.  Maybe they were run over by a tractor or other natural causes like you said.  I think, (and incidentally so does the modern FREE Ukrainian government) that they starved to death and those who didn't give up their farms either were shot on the spot or died in the Gulag for opposing Stalin.  This may be an "inevitable consequence" of progress in the USSR.  But to those who were killed or had their property stolen, I submit to you that their viewpoint may be somewhat different.  You justify in part these murders by saying "hey look at what your country did to the blacks and indians."   No modern parallel.  You would be hard pressed to find a single person who will agree that what happened here in America was to those groups was just and fair.  WE are honest with ourselves about the cruelty of some of our history.  Why are you not so?

Secondly, my dear wife is Ukrainian.  Her family history , being told here, will serve as a testimony to your BS.  My wife's great grandparents had most of their farm, owned for centuries, confiscated during the "great collectivization".  When they resisted the secret police in the last attempt to confiscate what little remained, they were shot.  My wife's grandparents escaped execution during that time, changing their last name, moving away, and successfully starting a new life in a different part of the Ukraine, always hiding their previous identity.  These same grandparents met their death at the hands of the Nazi's during the War.  Shot for helping partisans behind German lines.  Patriots to the last, loving their country, protecting their kids, but always remembering what Stalin had done to them. Passing the story down to each generation.  My wife's father and later, her mother, served from the first day of invasion by the Germans to their ultimate victory in Germany.  They had been pushed all the way back to the Volga and fought their way back to Germany, serving with honor and distinction.  A good communist, he was proud of his service.  What was his reward from your precious USSR?  When the Ukraine declared their independence, every penny he had in the bank disappeared overnight, confiscated by the USSR.  Some corrupt government official owns his money now.  He always believed in the USSR, and in the end, they were his worst enemy.  Left penniless, Ukraine proudly gave him an apartment for his service and a small pension.  He died alone and poor in a city full of people just like him, his wife having preceded him in death for lack of money to buy proper medicine.    A Hero, A Patriot, forgotten and robbed by the "country" he loved.  God Rest His Soul.  

KGB, you should rethink who you defend with such energy.

---

Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

Orkster:

It's just that I see you arguing on the numbers, that is a very legitimate discussion to have. Not by you of course, by specialists. I'd like to hear a bit on moral justification of murder, taking of property, persecution, repressions, dictatorial government...

what is the definition of "specialist"?  On the numbers - you have access to studies and estimates, and can read volumes of books by "specialists" of all kinds.  People will just pick the "specialist" that most justifies their pre-existing opinion. 

On the moral question - who is really a "specialist"?  Someone who refuses to drink this wine and calls untold numbers of people who would think nothing of drinking it "sick f*cks"? 

I say that's step 1 to the next genocide... Especially combined w the mentality in that part of the world. You guys really don't see the hypocricy of moral relativism here?    

---

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Egor:

Orkster:

It's just that I see you arguing on the numbers, that is a very legitimate discussion to have. Not by you of course, by specialists. I'd like to hear a bit on moral justification of murder, taking of property, persecution, repressions, dictatorial government...

what is the definition of "specialist"?  On the numbers - you have access to studies and estimates, and can read volumes of books by "specialists" of all kinds.  People will just pick the "specialist" that most justifies their pre-existing opinion. 

On the moral question - who is really a "specialist"?  Someone who refuses to drink this wine and calls untold numbers of people who would think nothing of drinking it "sick f*cks"? 

I say that's step 1 to the next genocide...  You guys don't really don't see the hypocricy of moral relativism here?    

 

Well, let's see the expert specialists. I am educated enough to evaluate scientific credentials...  I bet those who reject or justify  murder, repressions and hunger under Stalin are not very well respected in the overall scientific community. And if their professional work is not respected by their peers, the numbers and ideas presented in such work can't serve as a strong argument in a discussion. They can serve as weak arguments -- like the need to raise youth in patriotic spirit or the need to "put past behind us". These are valid and legitimate arguments. However, they have little to do with whether something happened or not.

On the moral side, each can be their own judge. As long as the opinions are openly rationalized...

 Hey, I just thought about this, why not Stalin on pack of spaghetti -- LAPSHA? :-)  

---

Jedem Das Seine.