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Fact check: Florida GOP debate

Last post 02-21-2012, 7:41 PM by KGBMan. 27 replies.
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  •  01-27-2012, 11:23 PM 198788

    Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    From USA Today

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/story/2012-01-27/fact-check-florida/52818306/1

    I know Romney is not a perfect dude, but compared to the other ones he is much better...

    Here it is..

    Newt Gingrich falsely claimed he never favored a federal mandate requiring individuals to have health insurance. Rick Santorum claimed five times more people are seeking free care at Massachusetts hospitals because of Mitt Romney's health care law — a claim contradicted by official statistics.

    Romney repeated a false accusation that President Obama failed to denounce Hamas rocket attacks in a speech to the United Nations. And Santorum insisted that Muslim terrorists are seeking missile bases in Cuba — a wild claim based most likely on mistranslations of an Italian newspaper report.

    These were among the factual fouls that we noted as four GOP presidential candidates met for yet another debate. This one, the final debate prior to Florida's Jan. 31 primary, took place Jan. 26 at the University of North Florida in Jacksonville, Fla., and was carried live onCNN.

    Gingrich rewrites his mandate history

    Former House speaker Gingrich claimed he had never favored a federal mandate requiring individuals to obtain health insurance — only a state requirement.

     

    Gingrich: I didn't advocate federal mandates. I talked about it at a state level …

    Not true. Gingrich said "Congress" must require high-income persons to have insurance, not state legislatures. He did so explicitly in a 2007 opinion piece:

    Gingrich, June 25, 2007: In order to make coverage more accessible, Congress must do more, including passing legislation to [among other things] require anyone who earns more than $50,000 a year to purchase health insurance or post a bond.

    His support for a federal mandate is of long standing. In 1993, on NBC's Meet the Press, he said:

    Gingrich, 1993: I am for people, individuals — exactly like automobile insurance — individuals having health insurance and being required to have health insurance. And I am prepared to vote for a voucher system which will give individuals, on a sliding scale, a government subsidy so we insure that everyone as individuals have health insurance.

    Gingrich was proposing an individual mandate as an alternative to the Clinton administration's ill-fated health care plan, which was centered on an employer mandate, requiring businesses to provide insurance for their workers. And he held to a similar position as recently as last May, also on Meet the Press:

    Gingrich, May 15, 2011: Well, I agree that all of us have a responsibility to pay — help pay for health care. And, and I think that there are ways to do it that make most libertarians relatively happy. I've said consistently we ought to have some requirement that you either have health insurance or you post a bond … or in some way you indicate you're going to be held accountable.

    NBC's David Gregory: But that is the individual mandate, is it not?

    Gingrich: It's a variation on it.

    If Gingrich was thinking about a state-only mandate, he never said so at the time. And he clearly said "all of us" would be subject to his "variant" of the mandate just last May. We judge that Gingrich is falsifying his own history on this matter.

    Santorum attacks 'Romneycare'

    Former Pennsylvania senator Santorum and Romney battled over how the Massachusetts health care law has affected "free riders," and it turns out both candidates were right. Except that they weren't talking about the same thing.

    Romney started off by saying that under the state's health care law: "Ideaf you don't want to buy insurance, then you have to help pay for the cost of the state picking up your bill, because under federal law if someone doesn't have insurance, then we have to care for them in the hospitals, give them free care. So we said, no more, no more free riders."

    Santorum countered: "What has happened in Massachusetts is people are now paying the fine because health insurance is so expensive. And you have a pre-existing condition clause in yours, just like Barack Obama. So what is happening in Massachusetts, the people that Gov. Romney said he wanted to go after, the people that were free-riding, free ridership has gone up five-fold in Massachusetts. Five times the rate it was before."

    But Santorum was not, in fact, talking about "the people that Gov. Romney said he wanted to go after," which were uninsured individuals using free care at hospitals instead of buying insurance. Instead, Santorum, his campaign said later, was talking about free riders that drop their insurance and only purchase it again after they get sick.

    Santorum also said: "Because people are ready to pay a cheaper fine and then be able to sign up to insurance, which are now guaranteed under 'Romneycare'," than pay high cost insurance, which is what has happened as a result of 'Romneycare.' "

    Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, said that was "simply impossible" that free riders had gone up, because the percentage of insured residents had increased under the law to 98%.

    Romney is right in saying that those seeking free, or mostly free, care rather than buying insurance has decreased. The percentage of insured residents in the state went up from 93.6% in 2006, the year the law was enacted, to 98.1% in 2010. And data from the state Division of Health Care Finance and Policy show a 46% decline in the number of medical visits paid for by the state's Health Care Safety Net. The number of inpatient discharges and outpatient visits under the program went from 2.1 million in 2006 to 1.1 million in 2010 (see page 12).

    The Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts Foundation said in a November report that usage of the state's free care, or safety net, "fell dramatically, as expected" after the law took effect.

    BSBC Foundation report, Nov. 2011: In fact, the number of HSN patient visits at hospitals and community health centers declined by 36 percent in the first full HSN fiscal year of health reform. Over the past three years, HSN utilization has trended upward but is still below pre-reform levels.

    But Santorum had switched to talking about a different type of "free riders" - those who drop their coverage, wait until they get sick and then pick up coverage again. A Santorum campaign spokesman pointed us to a Wall Street Journal column by Michael F. Cannon of the libertarian Cato Institute, who stated that "Massachusetts reported a nearly fivefold increase in such free riding after its mandate took effect." We spoke with Cannon, and he referred us to a June 2010 Boston Globe article that quotes state figures showing those "who appear to be gaming the state's health insurance system by purchasing coverage only when they are sick" nearly quintupled from 2006 to 2008.

    In raw numbers, the state Division of Insurance said that the number dropping insurance coverage within six months had gone from 3,508 persons in 2006 to 17,177 in 2008.

    Cannon wrote in a blog post today: "One might object that these numbers seem like small potatoes compared to the apparent drop in visits paid from the Commonwealth's Health Care Safety Net program. Fair point. But the type of free riding Santorum identified is incomparably worse than the kind that happens in hospital emergency rooms. When people can wait until they are sick to purchase insurance, overall premiums rise so high that the health insurance market collapses in an 'adverse selection death spiral.' "

    The state was indeed aware of the problem, and lawmakers subsequently passed legislation to address it. Massachusetts instituted open enrollment periods so that individuals could only buy insurance at certain times - not whenever they happened to need it. There were two open enrollment periods in 2011, and as of this year, the state will have one open enrollment period from July 1 to Aug. 15 each year.

    In a press release, the Division of Insurance acknowledged that the open enrollment period was instituted to mitigate the problem Santorum described: "In the past individuals could purchase insurance at any time of the year, and in some cases were purchasing expensive policies for a short period of time, using a large amount of costly services, and then moving back into a lower-cost plan."

    We have asked the Division of Insurance if there are any updated numbers since the open enrollment rules were adopted last year.

    Romney's false rocket claim, again

    Romney once again falsely accused Obama of saying "nothing" about the Palestinians launching rockets into Israel during a 2009 speech to the United Nations. In fact, Obama said those who suffer include "the Israeli girl in Sderot who closes her eyes in fear that a rocket will take her life in the middle of the night."

    We called out Romney for this same false claim last year, when he made it at a GOP debate in Orlando, Fla., on Sept. 22. Here's the way he worded it this time:

    Romney: This president went before the United Nations and castigated Israel for building settlements. He said nothing about thousands of rockets being rained in on Israel from the Gaza Strip.

    Romney is referring to President Obama's first-ever address to the United Nations in September 2009, but his claim is still false. We'll just repeat what we said last time.

    Obama not only said, "We continue to call on Palestinians to end incitement against Israel," he made specific reference to suffering caused by rocket attacks:

    Obama, Sept. 23, 2009: We must remember that the greatest price of this conflict is not paid by us. It's not paid by politicians. It's paid by the Israeli girl in Sderot who closes her eyes in fear that a rocket will take her life in the middle of the night. It's paid for by the Palestinian boy in Gaza who has no clean water and no country to call his own.

    Jihadist missiles in Cuba

    Santorum made a wild claim that Cuba is working to harbor Muslim terrorists seeking to develop missile sites.

    Santorum: We're going to reward a country [Cuba] that is now working with these other countries to harbor and bring in Iran and the terrorist — the Jihadists who want to set up missile sites and to set up training camps.

    Santorum's comment sounds very similar to a claim that Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann made back in the fall about Hezbollah working with Cuba, and potentially building missile sites within its borders.

    Bachmann, Sept. 26, 2011: There's reports that have come out that Cuba has been working with another terrorist organization called Hezbollah. And Hezbollah is potentially looking at wanting to be part of missile sites in Iran and, of course, when you're 90 miles offshore from Florida, you don't want to entertain the prospect of hosting bases or sites where Hezbollah could have training camps or perhaps have missile sites or weapons sites in Cuba. This would be foolish.

    But according to a report on the Hill's Briefing Room blog, Bachmann was getting her information from an Italian newspaper that did not report that Hezbollah was developing missile sites in Cuba.

    The Hill, Sept. 27, 2011: Bachmann was referring to a report in the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, which claimed that Hezbollah was setting up a base in Cuba to target Israelis in Latin America. The article was circulated on some conservative blogs, but did not report that Hezbollah planned to import weapons; rather, the terror operation was said to be oriented around intelligence collection, coordination of the group's logistics in Latin America and identification forgery.

    'Language of the ghetto'

    Asked about an ad running in Florida that claims Gingrich once said "Spanish is the language of the ghetto," Romney claimed not to know about the spot, adding, "I doubt that's my ad." It is. And that's not exactly what Gingrich said. He referred to "bilingual" education but not specifically to Spanish.

    The Miami Herald reported this week that the Romney campaign released a Spanish-language radio ad in Miami that argues that Ronald Reagan would not have agreed with Gingrich. The Herald translated it as saying, "Reagan would have never offended Hispanics as Gingrich did when he said Spanish is the language of the ghetto."

    The announcer says the ad was "paid for by Romney for President." And then Romney himself adds at the end, in Spanish, "Soy Mitt Romney. Estoy postulado para presidente y apruebo este mensaje." Translation: "I'm Mitt Romney. I'm running for president, and I approve this message."

    After a commercial break, CNN debate moderator Wolf Blitzer noted that his staff had checked, and confirmed the ad was Romney's. Romney then posed a question to Gingrich: "Did you say what the ad says or not?"

    Gingrich said the "language of the ghetto" comment was "taken totally out of context."

    "Oh, OK, he said it," Romney responded.

    Not exactly. Gingrich claimed he never specifically used the word "Spanish" in connection with the phrase "language of the ghetto," and that he was speaking "in general, about all languages." That's true. Gingrich never specifically mentioned Spanish at all. In fact, shortly after making his "ghetto" comment, Gingrich criticized the government for printing ballots in 700 languages.

    As Romney said, "Let's take a look at what he said."

    The comment in question comes from a speech Gingrich gave to the National Federation of American Women on March 31, 2007, which C-SPAN has archived in its video library (the part in question begins around the 24-minute mark).

    Gingrich, March 31, 2007: Wilted Flowere should replace bilingual education with immersion in English so people learn the common language of the country and so they learn the language of prosperity, not the language of living in a ghetto.

    That same day, the Associated Press wrote a story — later picked up by the Washington Post - about Gingrich's comments and quoted Peter Zamora, co-chair of the Washington-based Hispanic Education Coalition, saying, "The tone of his comments were very hateful."

    Several days later, Gingrich posted a video on YouTube, in which he addressed his comments, in Spanish (he explained in the video that he had been taking Spanish lessons "for a while now"). According to the English subtitles provided, Gingrich began:

    Gingrich, April 4, 2007: Last weekend I made some comments that I recognize produced a bad feeling within the Latino community. The words I chose to express myself were not the best, and what I wanted to say is this. In the United States it is important to speak English well in order to progress and have success. To achieve this goal, we should replace bilingual education programs with intensive English instruction courses and in this way permit that English be the language that all of us have in common.

    This is an expression of support for Latinos, not an attack on their language. I have never believed that Spanish is a language of people of low income nor a language without beauty.

    Gingrich's dubious Freddie Mac claim

    Gingrich said the consulting contracts between the Gingrich Group and Freddie Mac expressly stated that he would do "no lobbying, none." His campaign website makes the same claim. But that's not quite true. The 1999 contract did contain such language, but the 2006 contract did not.

    Gingrich, Jan. 26: The contracts we released from Freddie Mac said I would do no consulting, wrote in, no — I mean no lobbying, none.

    Gingrich website, Nov. 9, 2011: Speaker Gingrich's consulting firm, The Gingrich Group, was retained in 2006 by Freddie Mac. To be clear, Speaker Gingrich did no lobbying of any kind, nor did his firm. This was expressly written into the Gingrich Group contracts.

    On Jan. 23, the Gingrich Group released a one-year consulting contract for 2006 with Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored mortgage entity. The contract paid the firm $25,000 a month in exchange for "consulting and related services by Freddie Mac's Director, Public Policy," Craig Thomas, who is a registered federal lobbyist.

    There was no provision "written" into the 2006 contract that Gingrich would do "no lobbying," as Gingrich said. Lobbying was mentioned only once in the contract: "Consultant will also supply copies of any disclosures or reports it may be required to file by law, such as reports filed under the Lobbying Disclosure Act."

    A day after releasing the contract, the Gingrich Group released a second contract: a 1999 agreement with Freddie Mac that also paid $25,000 a month, plus reimbursement of up to $1,000 per month for expenses. It was this contract — as Gingrich said — that had language clearly stating that Gingrich would do no lobbying for Freddie Mac. It said: "Neither The Gingrich Group nor Newt Gingrich will provide lobbying services of any kind nor participate in lobbying activities on Freddie Mac's behalf."

    The 1999 contract "was entered into by the Gingrich Group on July 21, 1999 and was a renewable contract, which lasted through 2002," according to the firm's press release.

    Bottom line: There were two contracts released, and only one contained the language cited by Gingrich and his website. So they are wrong to use the plural form "contracts" when saying that the agreements released to date included a no-lobbying clause.

    Santorum: 'Stolen' Social Security numbers?

    We have a small quibble with former Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum's choice of words in claiming that most illegal immigrants are working on Social Security numbers that are "probably stolen."

    Santorum: And people who have come to this country illegally have broken the law repeatedly. If you're here, unless you're here on a trust fund, you've been working illegally. You've probably stolen someone's Social Security number, illegally.

    His word choice — describing the numbers as "stolen" — wasn't exactly on target. But his overall point is backed up by Pew Hispanic Center estimates that most illegal immigrants are working under "fraudulent" Social Security numbers, which could be stolen or just falsified.

    The Wall Street Journal reported in 2008 that workers have traditionally used phony names and Social Security numbers to gain employment. But technology has made it increasingly difficult for counterfeit documents to pass muster, resulting in illegal immigrants increasingly acquiring the documents of real people. In 2009, the Supreme Court noted the difference between fake and stolen Social Security numbers, ruling that harsher federal sentences for identity theft cannot be handed down unless an illegal immigrant knowingly uses the number of a real person. Either way, the illegal immigrants are breaking the law, which was Santorum's point.

    Contributing: Eugene Kiely, Lori Robertson, Robert Farley, D'Angelo Gore and Ben Finley

    Correction, Jan. 27: We originally wrote that official statistics contradicted Santorum's claim that five times more people were seeking free care at hospitals because of the Massachusetts law. His campaign has since explained that by "free riders" he meant people waiting to buy insurance until they got sick. Both Santorum and Romney used valid figures; however, they were arguing about different issues.

    Newt Gingrich falsely claimed he never favored a federal mandate requiring individuals to have health insurance. Rick Santorum claimed five times more people are seeking free care at Massachusetts hospitals because of Mitt Romney's health care law — a claim contradicted by official statistics.


    Romney repeated a false accusation that President Obama failed to denounce Hamas rocket attacks in a speech to the United Nations. And Santorum insisted that Muslim terrorists are seeking missile bases in Cuba — a wild claim based most likely on mistranslations of an Italian newspaper report.

    These were among the factual fouls that we noted as four GOP presidential candidates met for yet another debate. This one, the final debate prior to Florida's Jan. 31 primary, took place Jan. 26 at the University of North Florida in Jacksonville, Fla., and was carried live onCNN.

    Gingrich rewrites his mandate history

    Former House speaker Gingrich claimed he had never favored a federal mandate requiring individuals to obtain health insurance — only a state requirement.


    Gingrich: I didn't advocate federal mandates. I talked about it at a state level …

    Not true. Gingrich said "Congress" must require high-income persons to have insurance, not state legislatures. He did so explicitly in a 2007 opinion piece:

    Gingrich, June 25, 2007: In order to make coverage more accessible, Congress must do more, including passing legislation to [among other things] require anyone who earns more than $50,000 a year to purchase health insurance or post a bond.

    His support for a federal mandate is of long standing. In 1993, on NBC's Meet the Press, he said:

    Gingrich, 1993: I am for people, individuals — exactly like automobile insurance — individuals having health insurance and being required to have health insurance. And I am prepared to vote for a voucher system which will give individuals, on a sliding scale, a government subsidy so we insure that everyone as individuals have health insurance.

    Gingrich was proposing an individual mandate as an alternative to the Clinton administration's ill-fated health care plan, which was centered on an employer mandate, requiring businesses to provide insurance for their workers. And he held to a similar position as recently as last May, also on Meet the Press:

    Gingrich, May 15, 2011: Well, I agree that all of us have a responsibility to pay — help pay for health care. And, and I think that there are ways to do it that make most libertarians relatively happy. I've said consistently we ought to have some requirement that you either have health insurance or you post a bond … or in some way you indicate you're going to be held accountable.

    NBC's David Gregory: But that is the individual mandate, is it not?

    Gingrich: It's a variation on it.

    If Gingrich was thinking about a state-only mandate, he never said so at the time. And he clearly said "all of us" would be subject to his "variant" of the mandate just last May. We judge that Gingrich is falsifying his own history on this matter.

    Santorum attacks 'Romneycare'

    Former Pennsylvania senator Santorum and Romney battled over how the Massachusetts health care law has affected "free riders," and it turns out both candidates were right. Except that they weren't talking about the same thing.

    Romney started off by saying that under the state's health care law: "Ideaf you don't want to buy insurance, then you have to help pay for the cost of the state picking up your bill, because under federal law if someone doesn't have insurance, then we have to care for them in the hospitals, give them free care. So we said, no more, no more free riders."

    Santorum countered: "What has happened in Massachusetts is people are now paying the fine because health insurance is so expensive. And you have a pre-existing condition clause in yours, just like Barack Obama. So what is happening in Massachusetts, the people that Gov. Romney said he wanted to go after, the people that were free-riding, free ridership has gone up five-fold in Massachusetts. Five times the rate it was before."

    But Santorum was not, in fact, talking about "the people that Gov. Romney said he wanted to go after," which were uninsured individuals using free care at hospitals instead of buying insurance. Instead, Santorum, his campaign said later, was talking about free riders that drop their insurance and only purchase it again after they get sick.

    Santorum also said: "Because people are ready to pay a cheaper fine and then be able to sign up to insurance, which are now guaranteed under 'Romneycare'," than pay high cost insurance, which is what has happened as a result of 'Romneycare.' "

    Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, said that was "simply impossible" that free riders had gone up, because the percentage of insured residents had increased under the law to 98%.

    Romney is right in saying that those seeking free, or mostly free, care rather than buying insurance has decreased. The percentage of insured residents in the state went up from 93.6% in 2006, the year the law was enacted, to 98.1% in 2010. And data from the state Division of Health Care Finance and Policy show a 46% decline in the number of medical visits paid for by the state's Health Care Safety Net. The number of inpatient discharges and outpatient visits under the program went from 2.1 million in 2006 to 1.1 million in 2010 (see page 12).

    The Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts Foundation said in a November report that usage of the state's free care, or safety net, "fell dramatically, as expected" after the law took effect.

    BSBC Foundation report, Nov. 2011: In fact, the number of HSN patient visits at hospitals and community health centers declined by 36 percent in the first full HSN fiscal year of health reform. Over the past three years, HSN utilization has trended upward but is still below pre-reform levels.

    But Santorum had switched to talking about a different type of "free riders" - those who drop their coverage, wait until they get sick and then pick up coverage again. A Santorum campaign spokesman pointed us to a Wall Street Journal column by Michael F. Cannon of the libertarian Cato Institute, who stated that "Massachusetts reported a nearly fivefold increase in such free riding after its mandate took effect." We spoke with Cannon, and he referred us to a June 2010 Boston Globe article that quotes state figures showing those "who appear to be gaming the state's health insurance system by purchasing coverage only when they are sick" nearly quintupled from 2006 to 2008.

    In raw numbers, the state Division of Insurance said that the number dropping insurance coverage within six months had gone from 3,508 persons in 2006 to 17,177 in 2008.

    Cannon wrote in a blog post today: "One might object that these numbers seem like small potatoes compared to the apparent drop in visits paid from the Commonwealth's Health Care Safety Net program. Fair point. But the type of free riding Santorum identified is incomparably worse than the kind that happens in hospital emergency rooms. When people can wait until they are sick to purchase insurance, overall premiums rise so high that the health insurance market collapses in an 'adverse selection death spiral.' "

    The state was indeed aware of the problem, and lawmakers subsequently passed legislation to address it. Massachusetts instituted open enrollment periods so that individuals could only buy insurance at certain times - not whenever they happened to need it. There were two open enrollment periods in 2011, and as of this year, the state will have one open enrollment period from July 1 to Aug. 15 each year.

    In a press release, the Division of Insurance acknowledged that the open enrollment period was instituted to mitigate the problem Santorum described: "In the past individuals could purchase insurance at any time of the year, and in some cases were purchasing expensive policies for a short period of time, using a large amount of costly services, and then moving back into a lower-cost plan."

    We have asked the Division of Insurance if there are any updated numbers since the open enrollment rules were adopted last year.

    Romney's false rocket claim, again

    Romney once again falsely accused Obama of saying "nothing" about the Palestinians launching rockets into Israel during a 2009 speech to the United Nations. In fact, Obama said those who suffer include "the Israeli girl in Sderot who closes her eyes in fear that a rocket will take her life in the middle of the night."

    We called out Romney for this same false claim last year, when he made it at a GOP debate in Orlando, Fla., on Sept. 22. Here's the way he worded it this time:

    Romney: This president went before the United Nations and castigated Israel for building settlements. He said nothing about thousands of rockets being rained in on Israel from the Gaza Strip.

    Romney is referring to President Obama's first-ever address to the United Nations in September 2009, but his claim is still false. We'll just repeat what we said last time.

    Obama not only said, "We continue to call on Palestinians to end incitement against Israel," he made specific reference to suffering caused by rocket attacks:

    Obama, Sept. 23, 2009: We must remember that the greatest price of this conflict is not paid by us. It's not paid by politicians. It's paid by the Israeli girl in Sderot who closes her eyes in fear that a rocket will take her life in the middle of the night. It's paid for by the Palestinian boy in Gaza who has no clean water and no country to call his own.

    Jihadist missiles in Cuba

    Santorum made a wild claim that Cuba is working to harbor Muslim terrorists seeking to develop missile sites.

    Santorum: We're going to reward a country [Cuba] that is now working with these other countries to harbor and bring in Iran and the terrorist — the Jihadists who want to set up missile sites and to set up training camps.

    Santorum's comment sounds very similar to a claim that Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann made back in the fall about Hezbollah working with Cuba, and potentially building missile sites within its borders.

    Bachmann, Sept. 26, 2011: There's reports that have come out that Cuba has been working with another terrorist organization called Hezbollah. And Hezbollah is potentially looking at wanting to be part of missile sites in Iran and, of course, when you're 90 miles offshore from Florida, you don't want to entertain the prospect of hosting bases or sites where Hezbollah could have training camps or perhaps have missile sites or weapons sites in Cuba. This would be foolish.

    But according to a report on the Hill's Briefing Room blog, Bachmann was getting her information from an Italian newspaper that did not report that Hezbollah was developing missile sites in Cuba.

    The Hill, Sept. 27, 2011: Bachmann was referring to a report in the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, which claimed that Hezbollah was setting up a base in Cuba to target Israelis in Latin America. The article was circulated on some conservative blogs, but did not report that Hezbollah planned to import weapons; rather, the terror operation was said to be oriented around intelligence collection, coordination of the group's logistics in Latin America and identification forgery.

    'Language of the ghetto'

    Asked about an ad running in Florida that claims Gingrich once said "Spanish is the language of the ghetto," Romney claimed not to know about the spot, adding, "I doubt that's my ad." It is. And that's not exactly what Gingrich said. He referred to "bilingual" education but not specifically to Spanish.

    The Miami Herald reported this week that the Romney campaign released a Spanish-language radio ad in Miami that argues that Ronald Reagan would not have agreed with Gingrich. The Herald translated it as saying, "Reagan would have never offended Hispanics as Gingrich did when he said Spanish is the language of the ghetto."

    The announcer says the ad was "paid for by Romney for President." And then Romney himself adds at the end, in Spanish, "Soy Mitt Romney. Estoy postulado para presidente y apruebo este mensaje." Translation: "I'm Mitt Romney. I'm running for president, and I approve this message."

    After a commercial break, CNN debate moderator Wolf Blitzer noted that his staff had checked, and confirmed the ad was Romney's. Romney then posed a question to Gingrich: "Did you say what the ad says or not?"

    Gingrich said the "language of the ghetto" comment was "taken totally out of context."

    "Oh, OK, he said it," Romney responded.

    Not exactly. Gingrich claimed he never specifically used the word "Spanish" in connection with the phrase "language of the ghetto," and that he was speaking "in general, about all languages." That's true. Gingrich never specifically mentioned Spanish at all. In fact, shortly after making his "ghetto" comment, Gingrich criticized the government for printing ballots in 700 languages.

    As Romney said, "Let's take a look at what he said."

    The comment in question comes from a speech Gingrich gave to the National Federation of American Women on March 31, 2007, which C-SPAN has archived in its video library (the part in question begins around the 24-minute mark).

    Gingrich, March 31, 2007: Wilted Flowere should replace bilingual education with immersion in English so people learn the common language of the country and so they learn the language of prosperity, not the language of living in a ghetto.

    That same day, the Associated Press wrote a story — later picked up by the Washington Post - about Gingrich's comments and quoted Peter Zamora, co-chair of the Washington-based Hispanic Education Coalition, saying, "The tone of his comments were very hateful."

    Several days later, Gingrich posted a video on YouTube, in which he addressed his comments, in Spanish (he explained in the video that he had been taking Spanish lessons "for a while now"). According to the English subtitles provided, Gingrich began:

    Gingrich, April 4, 2007: Last weekend I made some comments that I recognize produced a bad feeling within the Latino community. The words I chose to express myself were not the best, and what I wanted to say is this. In the United States it is important to speak English well in order to progress and have success. To achieve this goal, we should replace bilingual education programs with intensive English instruction courses and in this way permit that English be the language that all of us have in common.

    This is an expression of support for Latinos, not an attack on their language. I have never believed that Spanish is a language of people of low income nor a language without beauty.

    Gingrich's dubious Freddie Mac claim

    Gingrich said the consulting contracts between the Gingrich Group and Freddie Mac expressly stated that he would do "no lobbying, none." His campaign website makes the same claim. But that's not quite true. The 1999 contract did contain such language, but the 2006 contract did not.

    Gingrich, Jan. 26: The contracts we released from Freddie Mac said I would do no consulting, wrote in, no — I mean no lobbying, none.

    Gingrich website, Nov. 9, 2011: Speaker Gingrich's consulting firm, The Gingrich Group, was retained in 2006 by Freddie Mac. To be clear, Speaker Gingrich did no lobbying of any kind, nor did his firm. This was expressly written into the Gingrich Group contracts.

    On Jan. 23, the Gingrich Group released a one-year consulting contract for 2006 with Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored mortgage entity. The contract paid the firm $25,000 a month in exchange for "consulting and related services by Freddie Mac's Director, Public Policy," Craig Thomas, who is a registered federal lobbyist.

    There was no provision "written" into the 2006 contract that Gingrich would do "no lobbying," as Gingrich said. Lobbying was mentioned only once in the contract: "Consultant will also supply copies of any disclosures or reports it may be required to file by law, such as reports filed under the Lobbying Disclosure Act."

    A day after releasing the contract, the Gingrich Group released a second contract: a 1999 agreement with Freddie Mac that also paid $25,000 a month, plus reimbursement of up to $1,000 per month for expenses. It was this contract — as Gingrich said — that had language clearly stating that Gingrich would do no lobbying for Freddie Mac. It said: "Neither The Gingrich Group nor Newt Gingrich will provide lobbying services of any kind nor participate in lobbying activities on Freddie Mac's behalf."

    The 1999 contract "was entered into by the Gingrich Group on July 21, 1999 and was a renewable contract, which lasted through 2002," according to the firm's press release.

    Bottom line: There were two contracts released, and only one contained the language cited by Gingrich and his website. So they are wrong to use the plural form "contracts" when saying that the agreements released to date included a no-lobbying clause.

    Santorum: 'Stolen' Social Security numbers?

    We have a small quibble with former Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum's choice of words in claiming that most illegal immigrants are working on Social Security numbers that are "probably stolen."

    Santorum: And people who have come to this country illegally have broken the law repeatedly. If you're here, unless you're here on a trust fund, you've been working illegally. You've probably stolen someone's Social Security number, illegally.

    His word choice — describing the numbers as "stolen" — wasn't exactly on target. But his overall point is backed up by Pew Hispanic Center estimates that most illegal immigrants are working under "fraudulent" Social Security numbers, which could be stolen or just falsified.

    The Wall Street Journal reported in 2008 that workers have traditionally used phony names and Social Security numbers to gain employment. But technology has made it increasingly difficult for counterfeit documents to pass muster, resulting in illegal immigrants increasingly acquiring the documents of real people. In 2009, the Supreme Court noted the difference between fake and stolen Social Security numbers, ruling that harsher federal sentences for identity theft cannot be handed down unless an illegal immigrant knowingly uses the number of a real person. Either way, the illegal immigrants are breaking the law, which was Santorum's point.

    Contributing: Eugene Kiely, Lori Robertson, Robert Farley, D'Angelo Gore and Ben Finley

    Correction, Jan. 27: We originally wrote that official statistics contradicted Santorum's claim that five times more people were seeking free care at hospitals because of the Massachusetts law. His campaign has since explained that by "free riders" he meant people waiting to buy insurance until they got sick. Both Santorum and Romney used valid figures; however, they were arguing about different issues. 


  •  01-28-2012, 2:57 PM 198789 in reply to 198788

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    This is all fun, Evgeny,  how about we fact check Obama's state of the union speech also.  It was full of whoppers.
    Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you
  •  01-28-2012, 5:22 PM 198790 in reply to 198789

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    Fact-checking the State of the Union address

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jan/24/fact-checking-state-union-address/

    Fact-checking the State of the Union address

    By Bill Adair

    Published on Tuesday, January 24th, 2012 at 8:35 p.m.

    President Barack Obama's State of the Union address Tuesday night seemed to be as much about political positioning as it was a report on his progress.

    Obama emphasized his initiatives on energy and taxes but still managed to stake out his positions for the 2012 election.

    We'll be examining several claims from his speech and will be updating this story with our Truth-O-Meter items.

    Obama began the speech by boasting about job growth. "In the last 22 months, businesses have created more than three million jobs. Last year, they created the most jobs since 2005," he said. We rated that Mostly True

    Obama claimed that American oil production is now the highest it's been in eight years. We rated that Mostly True.

    In a line that seemed aimed at critics who say he has expanded government too much, Obama said the EPA has repealed a rule that treated spilled milk like oil. We rated thatTrue.

    And we checked a claim that "(After the auto bailout) General Motors is back on top as the world’s No. 1 automaker." That rated Half True, mainly because there are few important caveats. 


    Sasha

    -------------------
    Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.
  •  01-28-2012, 5:27 PM 198791 in reply to 198790

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    Fact-checking the Republican response

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jan/26/fact-checking-republican-response/

    Fact-checking the Republican response

    By Louis JacobsonMolly Moorhead

    Published on Thursday, January 26th, 2012 at 2:23 p.m. 

    Calling the state of the country "grave," Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels quickly zeroed in on the central issue of the presidential campaign: the economy.

    Daniels conceded that Obama didn’t create the current crisis, but "he cannot claim that the last three years have made things anything but worse," he said in the nationally televised address.

    One example he cited was unemployment. "Nearly half of all persons under 30 did not go to work today," Daniels said.

    We looked at Bureau of Labor Statistics figures and found that Daniels’ statement ignores the glaring fact that many people under 30 are in high school and college. Still more, such as stay-at-home parents, choose not to work.   

    Daniels also went after another favorite Republican target: the economic stimulus package. He said that Steve Jobs, the late founder of Apple, created more jobs than the $800 billion spending plan.

    While taking into account the many disparities between a well-established company and a short-term government spending package, we still found Daniels’ numbers to be way off the mark. 


    Sasha

    -------------------
    Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.
  •  01-28-2012, 5:32 PM 198792 in reply to 198791

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    Republican response rulings (since they did not include links)

    Says Steve Jobs was responsible for creating more jobs than the stimulus bill.

    Mitch Daniels, Tuesday, January 24th, 2012.

    Ruling: False | Details

     

    "Nearly half of all persons under 30 did not go to work today."

    Mitch Daniels, Tuesday, January 24th, 2012.

    Ruling: Pants on Fire! | Details 


    Sasha

    -------------------
    Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.
  •  01-29-2012, 1:19 AM 198793 in reply to 198792

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    so in my younger days when i was idealistic enough to dedicate a lot more time to social justice on this forum, i'd go find a fact-checking entity with opposite interests and post it here to illustrate subjectivity and pitfalls of this type of an an approach to political analysis.  But that got me no further w you fine folks, than making a simple naked argument as I am about to do.  Same results expected this time, but less time wasted on my part.

    What makes an otherwise reasonable person think, that a presidential candidate whose statements are being carefully taylored to either make a "hit and run" impact by making false statements ON PURPOSE, and/or truths that stand up to fact checking where prudent, is going to be less credible in his/her rhetoric, that an allegendly "independent" fact checker of unknown political persuasions and goals, and whose credibility is in turn not going to be fact-checked by anyone? 

    What if there were tiers - a third fact checker checking the second fact checker, for all of these items listed here.  It would perhaps make a case that these statements referred to things correctly, or were worded in such a way that the statements were empirically true.  For instance saying "there are reports that Hizbollah is doing sh*t in Cuba" is a true statement provided such a report can be produced (and they admit it has been - from an italin newspaper).  And then a fourth fact checker to check the third..  Who would read every single italian newspaper for every day from the last 10 years, and tell you confidently that no italian paper ever was found producing such a report, so the original statement was false.  And a fifth fact-checker, who finds a Portugese paper that reported it, so, again, the statement is true.  Are you going to hold that newspaper in your hand, translate it and read it?  So why the hell would you be interested in believeing these people?

    More importantly - why would you even care?  We don't know that politicians mislead willfully as a requirement for their career?  For example, the original statement by Santorum i referenced above was idiotic in my view, but he didn't (in fairness) say that this was actually happening.  I did not come away after hearing it, thinking that Santorum was saying it is definitely happening, even in his opinion.  So I consider Santorum's point, make a judgement about how he would govern as a result of being capable of making such statements, and I move on w my life having learned something useful about Santorum (assuming i didn't already know that about him).  It is irrelevant to me what newspaper said what, if anythimg. I got what i needed: If I am concerned about Hizbolah making in-roads in Latin America - Santorum is my guy, at least on this subject. If I don't like overreaction on such matters, he isn't.  The truth of his statement has absolutely zero bearing on this. And the same is true of all of these statements.  You know by now if you have been following how each of these guys would govern we know how Obama would govern too.  Regardless of fact checking of his speech.

    And speaking of that speech - If what was posted regarding fact-checking State of the Union is complete - what a joke.. These are the statements they picked to fact check?  How about fact checking the statement "good evening"?  That speech could be parsed sentence by sentence exposing half-truths, lies, and deceptions, and each and every one of you knows I can do it given the time Big Smile But I wouldn't do it to show the man is a liar.  He is saying what he considers to be smart things to say.  And I actually learned a lot, about what what he learned, whow he intends to win, how he intends to govern if he does win, who he is going to appease, and which beliefs that I hold would be served by that.

    Yes, there is a mild recovery that started abour a quarter ago.  I don't need to fact check it - in my view it is 2 years delayed partially as a consequence of his administration.  But yes, it is happening, and he can/should take credit.  Why would I be interested in fact checking how many jobs precisely were created in the last 3 months?  No one keeps track of that stuff correctly anyway in my view.  I don't care what numbers he is looking it.  I see what I see, and he is saying things that make sense for him to say.

    Bottom line - there is a dozen of facts, lies, and half-truths in an average sentence uttere by any politician.  Fact checking a 90 minute speech - is an encyplopedia.  And every sentence in that encyclopedia must be fact-checked as well.  If this is how you decide whom to support and what political beliefs to hold, trust me, you don't have the time for this.  No one does w that approach. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     


    "The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher
  •  01-29-2012, 4:11 PM 198794 in reply to 198793

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    Egor,

    While I always appreciate the effort you make to educate some.....Stick out tongue

    There are those who are listening, and those who are not.

    Gilstrap's Fact Check on Obama's SOTU Speech:

    Good Evening.... okay so far..... it was evening.

    Everything else was a lie or what he thought one of his constituencies wanted to hear.  Okay, maybe not EVERYTHING.Big Smile

    Why is he purposefully dividing the country between the rich and middle/poor classes?

    Why is he villifying the upper, job creating class?

    What he didn't say spoke the most.  The 4.5 Trillion he added to the Federal Deficit in 3 years for one.

    Why has he been totally unable to get a recovery substantially underway?    Why is real growth in the US the lowest in 80 years?

    The number of employed today is still 2.5 million people less than it was when he took office.

    What the Federal Deficit will look like if we dare re-elect this catastrophe at the end of a second term???

    Why did he take credit for a revival in energy production when in fact this revival has occurred because the oil was found on private property and could not be sucessfully blocked by the EPA?  Energy production on FEDERAL land is down 40% during this administration, thanks to our environazi EPA and other regulations.

    Why didn't you brag any at all about Obamacare, your signature accomplishment?  Hope everyone forgets????   Not a chance.

    Why hasn't he been able to pass a federal budget yet during his time as President?

    ETC........  

    Mr. President, the real state of the union sux and only replacing you will help it.  

    I could go on but I feel it is futile.


    Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you
  •  01-30-2012, 9:41 AM 198795 in reply to 198794

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    J

    Under Obama, Oil and Gas Production on Federal Lands Is Down 40%

    In his announcement rejecting the Keystone XL pipeline today, President Obama boasted that under his administration, “domestic oil and natural gas production is up.” Obama, of course, failed to mention that his administration can’t actually take any credit for the increase.

    The vast majority of America’s new oil and gas production is happening on private lands in states like North Dakota, Alaska and Texas.

    It’s not that Obama is devoid of responsibility. His administration oversees oil and gas production on federal lands by issuing leases. But when measuring oil and gas production in areas under Obama’s jurisdiction, the numbers tell a different story.

    Citing publicly available federal data, the House Natural Resources Committee noted these figures:

    • Under the Obama administration, 2010 had the lowest number of onshore leases issued since 1984.

    Despite the Obama administration’s restrictive policies for oil and gas production on federal lands, overall production still increased thanks to the pro-energy policies in states like North Dakota.

    “North Dakota has been the poster child for what can happen when we unleash free enterprise and allow states to develop and commercialize their resources,” Heritage’s Nick Loris wrote recently on The Foundry. “North Dakota is drilling at record pace.”

    The result: North Dakota’s unemployment rate is 3.4 percent, the lowest in the country. According to a recent report from IHS Global Insight, North Dakota already returned to pre-recession employment along with energy-rich Alaska. Texas is expected to do so in the first quarter of 2012, followed by Nebraska and South Dakota next year.

    Those states all have something in common: energy production.

    That policy aligns with recommendations from Obama’s own Council on Jobs and Competitiveness, which yesterday issued a report calling for more energy production that includes drilling and pipelines. Here’s the language from the Jobs Council report:

    As a nation, we need to take advantage of all our natural resources to spur economic growth, create jobs and reduce the country’s dependence on foreign oil. First, we should allow more access to oil, natural gas and coal opportunities on federal lands. Where sources of shale natural gas have been uncovered, federal, state and local authorities should encourage its safe and responsible extraction. While the administration has supported holding additional lease sales and evaluating new areas for drilling, further expanding and expediting the domestic production of fossil fuels both offshore and onshore (in conjunction with more electric and natural gas vehicles) will reduce America’s reliance on foreign oil and the huge outflow of U.S. dollars this reliance entails. In addition, policies that encourage rapid lease development while emphasizing the highest safety standards will ensure companies responsibly drill for natural gas or oil and mine for coal or other our minerals in federal areas in a timely manner.

    With the Keystone XL decision, Obama rejected that advice. “At a time when unemployment remains unacceptably high, Iran is threatening the Strait of Hormuz, and Canada is looking to take this oil elsewhere, it is difficult to understand how the President could say no to thousands of jobs and an increase in energy supply from our ally,” Loris wrote in reaction to the decision.

    Posted in Energy and Environment, Scribe

    Comments (118)

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    ust one source of the information about the DECREASE in oil production on federal lands controlled by Obama while he talks a good game, he is obviously lying.


    Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you
  •  01-31-2012, 5:09 PM 198798 in reply to 198795

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    In fairness, just like with Santorum's example, the specific statement about oil production is not false. He was obviously speaking for combination of public/private.  It is, at worst, misleading to the uninformed.  Which is normal for anyone in public office, I don't see an issue there.  Though it is, always, frustrating.  From both sides.

    What Obama can say if confronted on this issue in a debate is "don't you Mit (Newt) like private drilling?   Stop depending on government to solve all your problems Big Smile  We gave more permits/approvals and have a tax policy conducive for private drilling than the previous 2 administrations combined". 

    Obama's case to the American people, is really not that hard to make. I have never been overconfident (or even somewhat confident, as you know) about the outcome of the 2012 election.


    "The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher
  •  02-01-2012, 9:40 AM 198802 in reply to 198798

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    I dunno that I agree with you that Obama's case will be easy to make.

    While he is claiming a 3 million job increase, people will look around their town and KNOW that isn't true, because they just don't see it.  The economy is improving ever so slowly, they will see that too.  There is little he can do to make the economy better before his reelection in November.  I still feel people may go with what they see around them rather than what he says.  Everytime they go to a gas pump and pay $3.50 a gallon for gas, they will remember why it is so high.  People are frustrated and they know that Obama has done little to nothing to make it better.  Down the road comes socialized medicine called "Obamacare".  He lied every step of the way, saying we could keep our old coverage and the costs would go down.  He said this so many times, everyone will remember this.  However, he slyly postponed the preponderance of the most restrictive changes until 2014., so the effect is truly unknown, politically and with respect to our liberty.

    What say you?


    Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you
  •  02-01-2012, 11:38 AM 198806 in reply to 198802

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    mkgilstrap:

    I dunno that I agree with you that Obama's case will be easy to make.

    While he is claiming a 3 million job increase, people will look around their town and KNOW that isn't true, because they just don't see it.  The economy is improving ever so slowly, they will see that too.  There is little he can do to make the economy better before his reelection in November.  I still feel people may go with what they see around them rather than what he says.  Everytime they go to a gas pump and pay $3.50 a gallon for gas, they will remember why it is so high.

    That's why it is important to know the facts and not make decisions based on what statement makes you feel good.  The world demand for oil is down because of the bad economy while production has been fairly constant.  The economics 101 teaches us that the price should go down, but it does not.  Obviously one reason is Iran - price of oil now has a risk premium.  Another reason is speculation in the oil market. 

     

    mkgilstrap:

    People are frustrated and they know that Obama has done little to nothing to make it better.  Down the road comes socialized medicine called "Obamacare".  He lied every step of the way, saying we could keep our old coverage and the costs would go down.  He said this so many times, everyone will remember this.  However, he slyly postponed the preponderance of the most restrictive changes until 2014., so the effect is truly unknown, politically and with respect to our liberty.

    What say you?

    Actually I am not that against Obamacare (which is pretty much Romneycare).  Right now, people who don't have health insurance just go to emergency room, get treatment, and dump the costs on everyone else.  I was told by a person who is a 911 dispatcher about the situation here in Gwinnett county.  Many people who are unemployed (or marginally employed) don't have health insurance.  When they get a health emergency they can't even pay for an ambulance ride to the hospital, forget about the cost of care.  The ambulances in Gwinnett are operated by the county that naturally looses a lot of money when people can't pay.  There is also a war of sorts going on between Gwinnett Medical Center and Northside in Fulton.  Gwinnett ambulances sometimes take uninsured patients to Fulton to ease the burden on GMC.  

    I support health insurance mandate.  No one is insured from getting a heart attack, or stroke, or getting seriously injured somehow.  If you are going to count on getting treatment, the hospital should count on getting paid for providing it.


    Sasha

    -------------------
    Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.
  •  02-01-2012, 11:59 AM 198807 in reply to 198802

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    Its a little hard to separate what I think personally versus trying to predict how people will react.  Your logic is sound, Mark.  But there are some factors out there that can be observed even this early that detract from it.

    The biggest one, that we already talked about here is that at least 40-45% of voters are prepared to vote for Obama today versus ANY republican that's running.  I think you agreed w me in the past, that there's little that can change their minds if they haven't done so by now.  Certainly not Romney's mediocre debating skills and complete lack of charisma and appeal to people in the emotional sense.

    Another is a spike in antipathy of the American public towards the successful and the rich.  Generally, Americans are pretty reserved and logical on the subject of capitalism and economic liberty, but these short spikes that come after depressions and bad recessions have not historically favored free-market leaning candidates.  Because the affect of a president on economic cycles is actually overstated somwhat in the average voters' minds (hell - we are getting growth under Obama, and if he is reelected he'll get the privelege of being credited with  globally-percipitated recovery) - so incorrect lessons are being learned as a result even by those who do follow history.

    Thirdly, the republicans are more split than ever (3 ways the way I see it, but it can be argued that its 2 or 4 whatever).  There's always some split with any party, but this time, if you look at exit polls from the 4 states that voted, none of the 4 republican candidates have a high approval rating with republicans themselves.  Whether this leads to low republican turnout - i don't know.  Depends on how much each veter hates Obama.  But I do know that it will most definitely leave the republican nominee more vulnerable than ever to character assasination by the Obama campaign, and how debate performances are gping to be percieved by listening to somepone you despise in the first place.

    Fourth, that state of the Union, was a very good illustration of where (while I agree with you personally on many of these issues) the public responds well to an optimist who is willing to do so many popular and correct things that have simply not been put on his desk due to Republicans trying so hard to make him a failed president and wait him out, rather than selflessly worry about the good of the country. He is absolutely right about this. 

    Lastly there some facts that no one can dispute.  When he took over, the trajectory of the economy was alomost vertically down, that's a big-ass train to stop and reverse, plus there are trailing side effects, and he cannot be blamed for the vast majority of it in all fairness.  Now, he can argue is has been at least stopped, and possibly starting to move in the other directlion.  You and I know he doesn;t really control these cycles, and to the extent that he does, he probably delayed them rather than help.  But this cannot be proven.  It cannot be shown.

    So lets say he faces a bumbling Romney in the debate stage in front of the american people.  And all of a sudden, Obama is now MORE experienced in this field than his opponent.  Better debater (maybe not in my opinion, but definitely in most everyone else's).  Made tough, unpopular decisions, arguably to save the country from total collapse, risking his legacy and career to do what he and his economists considered the correct course of action in the face of public opposition, which Romney is incapable of even considering due to lack of a backbone. 

    I am telling you, Mark..  This is clasically a winning position.  And not too different from Bush's approach in 2004. 

     

      


    "The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher
  •  02-01-2012, 12:16 PM 198808 in reply to 198806

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    gtSasha:
      The world demand for oil is down because of the bad economy

    Fact check Big Smile


    "The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher
  •  02-01-2012, 12:36 PM 198809 in reply to 198808

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    You found a good graph Egor,

    I was basing my statement on what I have heard on CNN:  

    http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/15/zakaria-why-oil-prices-will-stay-high/ 

     People drive less in the winter. The American economy is slow. The Euro Zone has stalled. China and India are slowing down. So demand for oil worldwide is low. So why is oil trading high at $113 a barrel, more than twice the price it was trading at five years ago when the global economy was booming? What in the world is going on?

    And Fareed Zakaria is actually one of the more objective reporters.  Sometimes they have pundits on the news that say things that are so obviously BS that you don't even have to google them.

    That's what makes it so difficult to figure out who has the most sound policy.   


    Sasha

    -------------------
    Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.
  •  02-01-2012, 12:50 PM 198810 in reply to 198809

    Re: Fact check: Florida GOP debate

    Yes, I agree.  None of us can know everything.  I just happened to know this specific fact, which is why i looked for a graph.  Otherwise I would have believed that the demand was down and not bother to check.

    Which is why I argued in my first post in this thread - since we can't each be an expert on every subject, why do we settle for doing it partially (fact-check 0.1% of a speech), and then draw conclusions?

    Maybe the approach itself is incorrect?

    Maybe we should look at the points that politicians try to make instead, weigh that against what they've actually done previously on these subjects, and easily predict how they would govern?  And then, in turn, weigh that against our hopefully well-formed and researched opinions on what leads to prosperity, or whatever other issues are important to us (education, health care, foreign policy, energy policy, etc - or all of the above?)

    So if Fareed Zakaria runs for president, you know where he stands on this issue regardless of the validity of his statement.  All we need to know is that he is willing to make it. 

    Even the information a president is getting may not be truthful.  Whether they act on it, how they act on it. is a function of where they stand on these issues.  Which we can conclude and predict very, very easily. 

     


    "The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher
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